It could be significant or nothing. If your engine was tuned while the rings were allowing alot of ring blowby or if consuming oil those factors will affect how it was tuned.

If you are tuned on Neptune then why would you buy an RTP unit? - they now use the Moates Demon btw. Regardless if you can edit your existing tune and clean up the AFR it should be fine to get it back to the dyno.

I like to put at least 100 miles on new engines before we really start loading them up. The bulk of the ring seal will take place in the first 100 and you can "street test" any other issues like coolant issues, vibrations, flush oil etc. But you can also break it in on the dyno too - just lots of varying rpm, vac and load.

 

Thanks for the feedback Muckman.
I was under the impression the demon unit was the same as the rtp.(can't burn rom, real time programming directly from chipped ecu to laptop)

The enigne was healthy when tuned (good compression + leakdown no oil consumption/ visible blowby) The car will be put back on the dyno for sure but I want it to be for as little time as possible to make sure everything is dialed in properly rather than paying $500 plus for a retune and me gaining no knowledge of tuning.
I'd really like to take this opertunity to learn how to tune since I already have a good tune to start with.

The main factor is money here I want to keep total costs @$500-800. To paysomeone to retune on a dyno for 3+ hours plus parts and machining will exceed this.
Also this will not be my last turbo car and tuning is basically the only type of job I havent tackled yet.
Once again thanks!

 

the main factor is money here i want to keep total costs @$500-800. To paysomeone to retune on a dyno for 3+ hours plus parts and machining will exceed this.

The engine was healthy when tuned. After the rebuild you will have a little more compression, but outside of that the current tune will be fine. Drive it through the break-in process and then take it to get the tune touched up.

Also it will not be a 3 hour, complete re-tune. Not much will need to be changed. A few pulls and some tweaks from your tuner and you will be set. One hour of dyno time is probably plenty (for calculating cost).

 

Thats awesome to hear Dustin and that is exactly what I was figurd it would be.

My other concerns were whether or not the head will need to be machined as any loss of material here will also raise compression. The block has never overheated on me and I am guessing it will be within limits.

I am asumming if it is I should have no problems with a stock HG + arp bolts or studs if I clean up both surfaces well enough. Also on the topic of the head; if I am redoing the valve stems I would be tempted to port/ match the head to the manifolds for slightly better flow. Would this dratically alter the AFRs/be wortjnhwhile or should I just leave it alone?

I am also wondering opinions on changing just the rod bearings or rods + mains.
Thanks for the help guys!

 

Thats awesome to hear Dustin and that is exactly what I was figurd it would be.

My other concerns were whether or not the head will need to be machined as any loss of material here will also raise compression. The block has never overheated on me and I am guessing it will be within limits.

I am asumming if it is I should have no problems with a stock HG + arp bolts or studs if I clean up both surfaces well enough. Also on the topic of the head; if I am redoing the valve stems I would be tempted to port/ match the head to the manifolds for slightly better flow. Would this dratically alter the AFRs/be wortjnhwhile or should I just leave it alone?

I am also wondering opinions on changing just the rod bearings or rods + mains.
Thanks for the help guys!

None of those modifications will affect the tune drastically. The current tune will be plenty sufficient for the break-in process. Definitely have it re-tuned after that though, to take advantage of all that work!

My local shop did not deck the head at all because it was within spec (flat). I can't speak of other shops procedures but decking the head takes more time. And the OEM HG and ARP studs is a tried and true set up, can't go wrong.

 

The RTP has been retired. The demon is all you need to tune your ECU sounds like you are good to go here.

Have the machine shop note how much, if any material, is removed when the head and/or block are milled. Usually its only a couple thousandths and not enough to affect compression significantly.

If you are looking at new valves have your machine shop check out the guides and do a valve job is its worn. Dont touch the port job. A porting newbie will do more harm than good.

 

The RTP has been retired. The demon is all you need to tune your ECU sounds like you are good to go here.

I thought the Neptune RTP was the Demon and the software to allow an individual to make changes.

Neptune being just the software a dealer would use to write a tune to the ECU. Any changes would require a visit to the dealer to re-write the tune.

Do I have this incorrect?

 

Awesome thanks for confirming what I have been thinking.

I wasn't planning on changing any valves/ springs etc just the stem seals.

Should I look at changing the main bearings as well? I'm really hoping the crank won't need to be turned. Should I change out all the hardware for the rods/mains & if so is it worth going to ARP?

If there is anything else I should look at doing while I have the engine out & apart I am all ears. (Besides timing belt + water pump)

 

Awesome thanks for confirming what I have been thinking.

I wasn't planning on changing any valves/ springs etc just the stem seals.

Should I look at changing the main bearings as well? I'm really hoping the crank won't need to be turned. Should I change out all the hardware for the rods/mains & if so is it worth going to ARP?

If there is anything else I should look at doing while I have the engine out & apart I am all ears. (Besides timing belt + water pump)

As long as they are not damaged the valves and springs can be re-used. I would replace both the rod and main bearings. No sense in doing only one or the other. You will have the bottom end open so do it all once rather than later down the road. ARP rod bolts and main bolts are a great upgrade over stock (totally worth the money spent).
The crank shouldn't need to be touched unless something bad happened (spun bearing, etc..). I would still inspect everything very closely when you have it apart

 

You dont need to upgrade the main bolts to studs. In fact I would not recommend it. At most just replace the main bolts with OEM bolts. However you do want to upgrade to head studs. Get a new oil pump too.

You wont have to turn the crank. At most you can get it polished and rebalanced but its not required.

 

Ok that was my plan to do everything properly according to my inspection findings but not change out parts that are still good.

The same thread on H-T has brought up an interesting article about breaking in the neew rings. (Saying engine should be run rather hard in a certain way to get the best seal) It has made me have some concerns about fine metal particles making their way through the hot section/through the oil system in the turbo. Am I worrying for nothing?

 

Yes, I believe you're worrying over nothing. Everyone has their own "preference" on engine break-in. In fact, it's been discussed many times on here before. Some baby the crap out of it, because "their grand-daddy did it like that" back in their hay-day.

Me, my motor got broken in under boost, on the dyno, with one or two oil changes in between. My opinion is that positive pressure helps seat the rings. Of course, everyone is going to have their own opinion.

 

Sounds good I might give that method a try I just want to be extra sure I do it right the first time.

I will have to do some more research and decide the best route for me. I will follow up eventually how it all works out.

Thank you all and if there is anything else to add please share!
It is a treat to deal with some sane courteous people on the forums with good info. So many of the S13 + Supra threads goto hell very fast.

 

The original Neptune RTP hardware looked like this. To me this is what "RTP" really was.

That board was retired and Moates.net released the Demon in 2009 which supports 4 ROM editors - Crome, eCTune, TunerPro and Neptune which is the best by far.

I think JR markets the entire system, both the sw and hw, as the "RTP" Real Time Programmable [Engine Management System] even though its from two different companies. Its better to brand it as a complete system like Hondata where the hw and sw are synonymous with the name. And that's your Neptune lesson for today.

 

So I have talked to the guys at Neptune and Muckman + Salami are right. The Demon setup would let you make your own tune and save to the ecu but not burn chips (have to be a dealer)
This is where my issue is now since the guy that tuned my car a couple years ago is no longer doing it and his tune on my ECU is his intullectual property according to Neptune.

I am in the process of tracking him down and asking for him to either send the map files or at least permission for me to use/tweak his work that is on my ECU. JR said I could buy the Demon + license and proceed as planned if he gets one of these from the tuner.

If I can't get a hold of him or he decides to be a dick though I would be completely out of luck and have to start over again from scratch.

I can understand the whole idea of protecting Neptune dealers business and all that but I think the system is a bit flawed in a situation like mine where I've invested hundreds into chipping and tuning with Neptune, AND am more than willing to invest several hundreds more into a Demon + license but might be screwed over just because a guy decided to get out of the tuning game/pulled up stakes.

Luckily after a couple hours of searching online and calling all the shops in a 100 mile radius I have got into contact with one of his buddies who says I will be able to get a hold of the tuner next week when hes back from vacation. When I dealt with the tuner in the past he seemed like a very decent guy so I am hoping it all works out.

I think this is good info for anyone considering using Neptune and have the possibility of changing their setup or wanting to tweak their tune in the future. Perhaps the best way would be to invest in the Demon and have a pro tune it for you but at least you have access to the files/tune later on down the road. (this is how I am understanding it at least please correct me if I am wrong) I am sure there are many other threads on similar topics.

 

I think the dealer license is to burn chips. But you should be able to download the binary code from the EPROM using a chip burner and its software. Then you should be able to open it up with Neptune. As long as you get the Demon you will be able to upload that same calibration file but be able to tweak it on your own now.

 

That's what I thought/makes sense but apparently there is a good chance that the tune was "locked" and I wouldn't be able to do that. As of right now I will try jumping through the hoops.

I really do think I should be able to have full access/ ability to tweak this tune that I paid for as I am the end user and and I will not be profiting or encroaching upon either the tuner's or Neptunes business.

I will update when I have any more info, this may be a reason for someone to choose a solution like Hondata so there is no license b/s to deal with.

 

I'm not sure I'm following, on why you think Hondata is a "better" solution, due to a licensing issue that you're having.

Put it in this scenerio: You buying a Demon module, along with Neptune. This is the same as buying Hondata. I'm not sure why Hondata would be a better solution, as these 2 options are exactly the same thing. Why didn't you go with the Demon option the first time, instead of getting chipped?

Besides, Hondata doesn't have a "chipping" offer sort of speak. However, chipping is a great option for people who want a tune from their tuner, and don't/want to worry about modifying the setting themselves. This is a more affordable option. If you think you're going to want to tweak the settings, or options, the Demon should've been the first thing purchased.

Lastly, name a piece of software that doesn't have licensing. Believe it or not, when you purchase Hondata, you're also purchasing a license sort of speak, although it's not advertised as such. You think Microsoft Windows 7 should be free also, with no license BS? Not only that, but the customer service from Hondata just down-right sucks. They will NOT support/help you, unless you're an authorized dealer. They're pretty clear with this. Although with Neptune, James's customer service is bar-none. He's extremely helpful, and answers your questions within hours. You won't find better support from Chrome, eCtune, or Hondata.

 

I wasn't say hondata is better at all just people should be aware of the system of licensing with Neptune.

I went with the chip + tune because I didn't plan on changing any part of the system/it was my first time dealing with boosting a car.

I am still very happy with Neptune I just think that since it is the same car and everything you shouldn't have to pay for a second license if you will. Maybe I am not fully understanding what you are paying for from a Neptune dealer. I thought of it as a Neptune dealer gets a license from JR for car they tune, if my car has license #123 for example from this dealer I just thought it would stay with the car, allowing me to later use a Demon unit to tweak that tune. I could imagine a situation where you move from somewhere in Colorado to Fl for example that the tune would be thrown off slightly due to atmospheric conditions. Yet you have to pay for another license to make any changes.

I understand that the tune work is the turners property but if he has nothing against me changing his work slightly I just think I should be able to under license #123 and not have to pay for another license #456 since it is the same car and same ECU. (this seems to be the same way Muckman is thinking)

Im sorry for coming off the wrong way I would def reccomend Neptune to anyone but I would advise to get a Demon unit from the start, even if you get a Neptune dealer to do your tune.
Hopefully that all made sense.

 

When you had your first tune done with Neptune you paid for a tune written with Neptune. You did not purchase the software or the rights to make changes. Neptune is only available from a dealer that can tune and write the tune to an ECU. The tune can be burned to a one time chip (less expensive up front) or with a Demon (which will allow different tunes to be written without changing the chip).

The Neptune RTP comes with a Demon, which you all ready have, and the rights for one user to use the software. The software from what I understand will only work with the one Demon it is licensed to. How ever you will be able to make ANY changes to it as many times as you like for how ever long you like.

The Neptune RTP and the Hondata S300 are set up to work the same way for tuning and licensing. The S300 costs more money on average compared to the RTP.

Does this help any?

 

Yeah that cleared it up decently I am just kicking myself now for assuming it wouldn't be a huge deal to tweak the tune as I thought once you get tuned on Neptune you could make small changes much how I had the tuner lean out the idle/do small amounts of street tuning with me.

At the end of it all I'd recommend getting the Demon unit vs just a tune and chip from a dealer. I got screwed over a bit in that he is no longer tuning and I am trying to track him down so I can at least still use his tune under my new license. If not I will have to either start back at square one (basemaps) and dump several hours of dyno/tuning time.

I guess in the end the only otger option I'd have is hope the changes are small enough that my old tune will be just fine and safe (but perhaps slightly less mpg or something minor like that)

If anyone has had a similar experience with a rebuild/rering and left their tune just how it was without problems that would be good to know. I could probably live with it if it went from a 12.0-2 AFR in boost to maybe 12.5 (unless ive been misinformed) but in the end I always try my best to do things right and once.

 

Sory double post but I am also wondering how it works if I found a Demon unit from a part out/used. Could I try to save some cash that way then buy a license from Neptune?

If that can be done any and all suggestions/dealers where I could get the best price would be awesome.