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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well I was looking at classing for SCCA Solo II and saw that the GSR and non-vtec tegs are classed together and it got me thinking... maybe I found something that the non-vtec tegs might possibly be the preferred teg for... auto-x.

The reasoning being the midrange of course. In auto-x you're pretty much throughout the midrange for the entire run. one would think that gearing would make up for this... well it would if third gear and on were used but in first and second gear, only the final drive is different, and for the most part these are the only gears used. This gives the GSR 3.14% addtional torque due to the tranny, but that's not enough to make up for the extra power that the non-vtec tegs are putting out until 6k RPM (see dyno in 'analyzing power curves' article by SurferX).

Thoughts?
 

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In theory, I agree that I would take the beefier midrange of the LS over the shorter 2nd gear of the GSR.

However in reality, its so driver dependant I wouldn't worry, brag, or bother with it.

This is assuming you are running the same sway bars as the GSR, so handling is not a factor.
 

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how does them being classed together lead to the conclusion that the non-vtecs are "preferred" in any way?
 

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i did, and it doesn't make much sense, personally.

autox is rarely about power. that's the fault in the logic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
StyleTEG on Apr/05/04 said:
In theory, I agree that I would take the beefier midrange of the LS over the shorter 2nd gear of the GSR.

However in reality, its so driver dependant I wouldn't worry, brag, or bother with it.

This is assuming you are running the same sway bars as the GSR, so handling is not a factor.
Agreed of course. It's not about being superior, more about being equal. The GSR has its place at the strip and the RS can have its place too!

True about the sway bars. The later LS's were equipped with the same bars as the GSR. That would actually make them more neutral due to the smaller front.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
DaBoyNBlu on Apr/05/04 said:
i did, and it doesn't make much sense, personally.

autox is rarely about power. that's the fault in the logic.
Two cars, same driver same conditions. So the one with the less torque will get the same time?

And my logic is off?

Enough with the jaded GSR superiority.
 

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Louse76 on Apr/04/04 said:
Two cars, same driver same conditions. So the one with the less torque will get the same time?

Enough with the jaded GSR superiority.
In reality, once the power gets to the ground, the GS-R has more torque than the LS. You forgot about the transmission.

From our Gearing I article, a torque graph of the stock Integras making a 3rd gear pull.

 

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I think louse's point was that you rarely hit 3rd gear in an AutoX. I have only once, in two years.

In second gear, the difference is minimal.

this gives the GSR 3.14% addtional torque due to the tranny, but that's not enough to make up for the extra power that the non-vtec tegs are putting out until 6k RPM (see dyno in 'analyzing power curves' article by SurferX).
 

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Not minimal enough. The GS-R still holds a pretty commanding lead for it's powerband while the LS only has a small window for which it makes more power (and not a whole lot more).

2nd gear chart



I don't think anyone has some "jaded GSR superiority" complex, it's just a superior car plain and simple. That's why it costed more and that's why Honda deemed it a "superior" trim level. You seem to want to try and justify the LS and make it somehow better than the GS-R for whatever reason. It's like when the Type R came out, GS-R owners would talk crap and say it was just "a GS-R that was less comfortable" and that there was "not a big difference." The trim levels are spaced and priced the way they are for a reason, just accept it.
 

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I'm no expert on this, but I think it would be pretty hard to keep the car (the LS) dead on in that little window of added torque consistently. There are so many things going on in that 50 to 60 seconds that we're running. I guess a person could keep it pinned in that window ... they would obviously be more skilled than I.

As stated already, SCCA classes them together, so that must mean that they haven't come across much proof that the Geeser is all that superior in Solo2. Sure, we have a few extra horses, and some other nice goodies, but really, Don't all Integras handle well? I knew you would agree that they all do.


Seat time is what it's really all about, nothing quite like experience to beat out a superior car piloted by an inferior driver.
Unless of course the particular Integra you are at odds with is equipped with a LSD, 5 lug wheels, and lower/stiffer suspension from the factory. But oh, we weren't talking about Josh's R now were we.


If it's an Integra, any Integra, it was built for AutoX!
 

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You can beat anything if you're a good driver and the other drivers are stupid. I think I mentioned this before but the big bad WRX club (big, as in ego) got owned by some stupid SUV at one of the autocrosses I attended. It was so awesome, the SUV was on the edge of rolling over on some of those turns but that driver knew the limits like nothing else. It's not about how god-like your car is, but how god-like you can drive.
 

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SurferX on Apr/05/04 said:
You can beat anything if you're a good driver and the other drivers are stupid. I think I mentioned this before but the big bad WRX club (big, as in ego) got owned by some stupid SUV at one of the autocrosses I attended. It was so awesome, the SUV was on the edge of rolling over on some of those turns but that driver knew the limits like nothing else. It's not about how god-like your car is, but how god-like you can drive.
That's insane!
 

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SurferX on Apr/05/04 said:
I don't think anyone has some "jaded GSR superiority" complex, it's just a superior car plain and simple. That's why it costed more and that's why Honda deemed it a "superior" trim level. You seem to want to try and justify the LS and make it somehow better than the GS-R for whatever reason. It's like when the Type R came out, GS-R owners would talk crap and say it was just "a GS-R that was less comfortable" and that there was "not a big difference." The trim levels are spaced and priced the way they are for a reason, just accept it.
i wish more people would read this / understand this and just give up about it . . . .
 

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Strider7slvrGSR on Apr/05/04 said:
As stated already, SCCA classes them together, so that must mean that they haven't come across much proof that the Geeser is all that superior in Solo2. Sure, we have a few extra horses, and some other nice goodies, but really, Don't all Integras handle well? I knew you would agree that they all do.
so by this way of thinking an LS is equal to an SVT focus?

nope

Quote: Seat time is what it's really all about, nothing quite like experience to beat out a superior car piloted by an inferior driver.
Unless of course the particular Integra you are at odds with is equipped with a LSD, 5 lug wheels, and lower/stiffer suspension from the factory. But oh, we weren't talking about Josh's R now were we.
autox is 75% driver, 23% weather, and like 2% car lol. ive beat a lotus elise by over 15 seconds (i ran a 47.xxx to put some perspective on that) and god knows how many other cars i should have no chance of beating.

the car means nothing in autox, it is ALL about the driver.
 

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98integraLs on Apr/05/04 said:
Quote: Strider7slvrGSR on Apr/05/04As stated already, SCCA classes them together, so that must mean that they haven't come across much proof that the Geeser is all that superior in Solo2. Sure, we have a few extra horses, and some other nice goodies, but really, Don't all Integras handle well? I knew you would agree that they all do.
so by this way of thinking an LS is equal to an SVT focus?
nope

Quote: Seat time is what it's really all about, nothing quite like experience to beat out a superior car piloted by an inferior driver.
Unless of course the particular Integra you are at odds with is equipped with a LSD, 5 lug wheels, and lower/stiffer suspension from the factory. But oh, we weren't talking about Josh's R now were we.
autox is 75% driver, 23% weather, and like 2% driver lol. ive beat a lotus elise by over 15 seconds (i ran a 47.xxx to put some perspective on that) and god knows how many other cars i should have no chance of beating.

the car means nothing in autox, it is ALL about the driver.


[/quote] i think you meant to say 2% car.
 

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Jason bouchard on Apr/05/04 said:
Quote: SurferX on Apr/05/04I don't think anyone has some "jaded GSR superiority" complex, it's just a superior car plain and simple. That's why it costed more and that's why Honda deemed it a "superior" trim level. You seem to want to try and justify the LS and make it somehow better than the GS-R for whatever reason. It's like when the Type R came out, GS-R owners would talk crap and say it was just "a GS-R that was less comfortable" and that there was "not a big difference." The trim levels are spaced and priced the way they are for a reason, just accept it. i wish more people would read this / understand this and just give up about it . . . .
this has been beaten to death about 10,000 times to many... It really depends on what you drive. GSR owners say their cars are superior from honda, while the b18b drivers say their cars are better because they cost less and allow mods w/the money saved... is one group wrong? nope. but at the same time neither is right. It is a war of opinions that cant be won as we have proved more times than nessacary.
 

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this has been beaten to death about 10,000 times to many... It really depends on what you drive. GSR owners say their cars are superior from honda, while the b18b drivers say their cars are better because they cost less and allow mods w/the money saved... is one group wrong? nope. but at the same time neither is right. It is a war of opinions that cant be won as we have proved more times than nessacary.

Exactly. There are pluses and minuses to every trim level in my book, including the ITR.

To say one is cut and dry superior is nothing more than tunnel vision, or a superiority complex.

In my real world experience, I see the midrange of the B18B to be more of an advantage in AutoX. There is a reason B18B integras have been able to hit low 15's (and a 14.8 in my case) with 15 - 20whp less than the B18C1 counterparts.

Not to mention last season in AutoX I can honestly say I spent 90% of the time between 4 - 6k rpm. I never dipped below 4, and I only went above 6 getting out of fist gear (which usually happens right off the starting line).

Quote: i wish more people would read this / understand this and just give up about it . . . .
Its attitudes like this that really disappoint me in the import community. Those who think that because they own a GSR or an ITR, they are somehow always going to be above or superior to the other trim levels. I see it as blissful ignorance.

These attitudes contribute nothing and take away from everyone. Instead of focusing on a common goal and hobby, they just put down other owners and convince them their car is not worth modifying.

This is why the B18B has gotten such a bad rap. Because owners of GSR/ITR's want to feel their car is king, and thus convince others not to bother. Its turbo or nothing. Because it does not have "vtack yo!" You look at almost any discussion debating B18B performance and half the people are convinced that the problem with the B18B is that it doesn't have the ability to have a high and low RPM cam profile. I think on this board we are advanced enough to know, that if you are racing and fall out of your powerband and into the low cam profile you need to alter your gearing.

There is no discussion of block girdles, head flow, etc. People are convinced that the lack of the low profile is the problem, even though you can simply get an aggressive cam and make plenty of power (See my dyno). Get a better trans for better torque multiplication. The list goes on.
 
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