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Discussion Starter #1
really really want a hytech header but while looking at ISP Racing for a carsound cat I was looking at the spoon and the mugen manifolds and they both have the right paired cylinders but other features aren't mentioned but are they compairable at all $300 cheaper would pay for the cat any info would help

edit: not really a VS. but is the hytech worth the extra $300
 

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The Mugen is an old style I wouldn't bother spending all that cash for it. The Spoon is a pretty good alternative, the only thing is the tube merge angles are pretty sharp.
 

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for $300 more, i would say hytech, haven't heard anything bad about their stuff, in fact, it seems to be the best! Why scrimp your teg, does it not deserve the best?
Realistically, what do you plan to do powerwise? is a turbo in your future? consider every aspect before your choice...
 

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The Comptech's not in the 2.5" collector club which I think is what gstyper is looking for. For the bigger headers there's lots of good ones to choose from, HyTech being the most expensive and the DC JDM 4-1 being the least. Ironically I will be dynoing the HyTech exhaust system vs. the DC JDM 4-1 header/Comptech exhaust within a week or two.

I usually see bigger results after tuning from the HyTech and SMSP headers than with the standard 2.5" headers. I think the sequential pairing of cylinders which is opposite the pairing of the stock and standard headers needs a slightly different cam degree and that's why gains after tuning are usually more substantial.
 

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Could the Spoon header be modified by an exhaust shop to make the secondaries as long as the Hi-tech or SMSP headers, therefore giving them the added midrange that others don't have. Or would the extra money paid for the alterations on the Spoon cost just as much as the Hi-Tech anyway?
 

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This is the merge in question on the Spoon header.



Perhaps you could chop off the 4-2 merge and add some extension onto the secondaries. Even then I'd want smoother angles on the merges themselves to not restrict any top end power if I was planning to rev higher in the future. Not sure what it would entail at a muffler shop but honestly would you be willing to chop up a $900 header like that?
 

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Mike what do you think of the differences of the header affecting the performance of the motor as just being a bolt-on vs. being tuned?

The SMSP was slightly weaker everywhere but but the high end compared to the other headers when just bolted on in the great header test. But what I see at Import Builders sometimes is that the SMSP headers they use gain much more after cam/fuel tuning than the standard aftermarket headers do when tuned as well.

Could it be that the stock cam timing is not optimized to take advantage of the sequential cylinder pairing and the pulses do not exit and pull each other along as well as they could? After all the stock manifold is completely opposite in cylinder pairing and I'd imagine factory cam timing was chosen to take further advantage of the non-sequential pairing or in the case of 4-1's, no pairing at all.

I mean look at Austin's dyno of stock vs. HyTech bolted on vs. HyTech tuned. I've never seen a stock motor with a standard type header equipped show a complete powerband improvement like that after tuning.

 

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you're not going to change the firing order on an inline 4 for vibration reasons. There's only 2 ways to fire the plugs and still not get excessive vibrations.

I'm not sure what you mean by tuning wrt ignition timing. do you mean the headers like more advance?

As I recall, Austin played around with the fuel map and fuel pressure only...but I could be wrong.

Anyway, tuning is huge...and yes if the Great Header Test actually tuned the car to each header, you would see more of a difference between the headers and the longer header would likely show it's true advantage. But I'm not about to bash those guys for making the effort of testing a lot of headers on a shoestring grass roots budget based on donations and people sending in their headers for testing all in one day. As I said before, it was a good effort. Maybe more could have been done but I don't see anyone here volunteering to test these headers and take the dyno time to tune them with their own cash...maybe we should?...
 

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MD posted this on hondavision 3.0 and if ground clearance is not an issue go with the spoon, supposedly its eaisly bent, along with the mugen. hytech has great ground clearance
 

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And I assume that the 2.5' setup is the better one for an N/A engine. I see posts about going with the 2.5' exhaust, then why not go with the 2.5 inch header and a 2.5' cat? That would be 2.5 inches the whole way back.

I remember surfer using the analogy of putting a 2.5 inch exhaust with the stock cat and the stock header, and it being just like puttin a fire hose at the end of a garden hose; it does nothing to decrease the pressure. So wouldn't it be logical to go 2.5' the whole way back and not cheap out and go 2.25 on the header, then 2.5 the rest of the way...seems like the way to me. Just seeing if I understand this correctly.
 

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MikeSarrGSR on Sep/06/02 said:
MD posted this on hondavision 3.0 and if ground clearance is not an issue go with the spoon, supposedly its eaisly bent, along with the mugen. hytech has great ground clearance
hytech has great ground clearance as in better then the spoon? i ask because that because that'd be a major factor in my decision regarding the correct header. That and $$ of course.
 

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Actually what I meant with playing with small changes in timing was that you slightly change the instance that the exhaust pressure wave builds in the system. With a sequentially paired header, I would think precise timing of the pressure waves is important to extracting the most power out of the motor. While in a non-sequential header it is much less important as the pulses do not directly affect each other nearly as much.

Of course I'm not putting down the great header test, I think it definitely showed what will work the best in a bolt-ons only stock engine package which is pretty much as far as the majority gets to.

My main curiosity lies in how a non convential header may work differently than a standard header on a stock motor and how tuning can affect one setup different than another.
 

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Justin Klemgold on Sep/06/02 said:
And I assume that the 2.5' setup is the better one for an N/A engine. I see posts about going with the 2.5' exhaust, then why not go with the 2.5 inch header and a 2.5' cat? That would be 2.5 inches the whole way back.

I remember surfer using the analogy of putting a 2.5 inch exhaust with the stock cat and the stock header, and it being just like puttin a fire hose at the end of a garden hose; it does nothing to decrease the pressure. So wouldn't it be logical to go 2.5' the whole way back and not cheap out and go 2.25 on the header, then 2.5 the rest of the way...seems like the way to me. Just seeing if I understand this correctly.


well yes and no...he's right if you have a 2 in. stock system at the header and cat and then slap on a 2.5 in, exhaust, it won't exactly inspire ahuge jump in gains but you can have a gradual stepped effect ending in 2.5 in. using 2 ft (minimum) long sections...2 in.-> 2 1/4 -> 2 1/2 ( antireversionary ) OR you can have 2.5 in. all the way through.

The bigger 2.5 in. collector as I stated in the header tech article will give you more top end. Big, short collectors = more upper powerband. Long smaller diameter collectors = more midrange.
 

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SurferX on Sep/06/02 said:
Actually what I meant with playing with small changes in timing was that you slightly change the instance that the exhaust pressure wave builds in the system. With a sequentially paired header, I would think precise timing of the pressure waves is important to extracting the most power out of the motor. While in a non-sequential header it is much less important as the pulses do not directly affect each other nearly as much.

Of course I'm not putting down the great header test, I think it definitely showed what will work the best in a bolt-ons only stock engine package which is pretty much as far as the majority gets to.

My main curiosity lies in how a non convential header may work differently than a standard header on a stock motor and how tuning can affect one setup different than another.
I see what you mean now. The sequential headers do respond well to higher CR's.

I think (but not sure) Austin's car has a thinner head gasket and a stock bottom end.

Cam gear timing and ignition timing advance would effect when the pulses would leave into the primaries. Spark advance would also affect when the initial spark in the firing order would start. it's too late at night for my head to loop around that noodle but I agree that if you play around you can find the sweet spot for the sequential headers easier than the conventional 1-4, 2-3 paired primaries headers.
 

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Gerson_911 on Sep/05/02 said:
hytech has great ground clearance as in better then the spoon? i ask because that because that'd be a major factor in my decision regarding the correct header. That and $$ of course.
Yes the Spoon has the worst ground clearance along with the other standard 4-1's like the DC and Mugen. The tubes on those headers are stacked right on top of one another. The HyTech has very good ground clearance as you can see in these pics. My cat would probably bottom out before my header does. My R is at stock height, which equals about a 0.5" drop.




 

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Discussion Starter #18
The hytech is like a dream and all I have to do is order and wait but the spoon and ground clearance is an issue so hytech is most likly it but as of now I only have a 2 3/8s exhaust so it would have to sit for a little bit. Does hytch sell any cats and by any chance does anyone know a price for obdII. I thing someone on here ordered a whole system
 

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All I have to say is, I hope your not in ANY hurry. I believe I'll finnish my engineering degree, before I'll get it.
 

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Not to ***** the thread, but I've yet to hear anything about Toda's or APEX'i's header. Good, bad, ugly?
 
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