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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is just a general question pretaining to engine packages. Does it matter what order I purchase/install the components of my engine package? Should I work my way from the outside in(intake/exhaust, IM/header, pistons, cams, then head), or just buy the parts as they come up. Like, get cams now, exhaust later...
 

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Do what you can; as long as you have a set goal, and a plan on how to achieve that goal you'll be set... Not everyone can afford to do it all at once. If you are going to do the internals, you should probably wait untill all those parts are together to save on time and money...Good luck.
 

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Start reading the Articles(written by MD). Otherwise, you are just going to waste money.
 

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Sorry if I sound like a broken record and I don't know how many more times I need to say this but here we go one more time:



THERE IS NO SET ORDER OR STAGES TO PURCHASING PARTS !!! ...


Sorry to break another import scene myth out there from the import car magazines, parts catalogues, and tons of honda website forums .



There IS planning before you buy and knowing where you want to end up before you start.


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Planning means finding out :



1. Where your tranny's gears operate after you upshift from the redline. What rpms does your engine work at, after you shift from redline?

2. What is the peak torque rpm location (also called engine powerband location goal )for the engine part you are buying? you have to know if this part will make power in the same rpms as the other parts or else they will conflict with one another or be incompatible with one another. The dimensions or specs of the part usually determine this.


3. Can the specs for this part flow enough air volume for my peak horsepower goal?

Do you even have a peak hp goal before you start ? Do you know what is a realistic peak hp goal, if you don't do headporting or bottom end engine rebuilding?

If the part's dimensions or specsare too small or too big (the most common beginner's mistake is going too big btw ), you may not flow enough to meet your peak power goal or you will flow in the wrong rpms and lose power over certain rpms.



When you plan like this, we call it "engine packaging".

You don't buy one part and think "what do I get next?".

You instead look at how the engine will end up even before you buy your "next part" .



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In "engine packaging", you try to make sure that:


1. where the engine gains power with your new part is matched to where your tranny works, in terms of rpm range.



2. the engine parts you buy won't gain power in different parts of the rpm range and start working against one another.



3. the parts flow enough to meet your expected peak goal.



4. you have researched ahead of time whether the part meets your goals by looking at other people's dyno sheets of properly FUEL TUNED engines like yours and see where the torque was gained and what peak hp they got.




In fact, what usually limits people from doing "engine packaging" is their level of inexperience about:

- what engine torque curves (or powerband)look like,

- engine parts relationships,

- and their own unwillingness to doing major internals work (maybe due to high cost reasons).


That's where the "order" (what next?) thinking comes from, I suspect.

Try to break away from that simplistic thinking.


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I'll give you an example:



When you buy cams, you also need to do some internal engine work with them. Few people starting out know this.

They just focus on the cams next and think that the bigger they go on the cams, the more power they will make. It just isn't so. If you go too big on the cams (or "overcam the motor"), you will lose power at the mid rpms, have a narrower peakier powerband that doesn't match your tranny's operating range, and the expected peak hp gain that you wanted doesn't happen: A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT. You have to have an IM/headporting to the right specs, large enough exhaust sizing, proper CR, and tuning for those bigger cams to work. But if you are starting out, all you hear is just get bigger cams after you get i/h/e "next" and get big cams which is wrong.



Also, very few people starting out in the scene buy cams as their first purchase modification for a stock engine. Why?


Well, in comparison to cams, an intake is easy to install, is cheap, and has few bad consequences, if you don't know what you are doing and choose the wrong intake with the wrong specs/dimensions.


Inexperience about design specs/dimensions and their effects on the powerband (torque curve)shape are what sets most people's mindset into thinking that a specific order of parts purchasing (or stages) must exist and that's how you should plan things. They aren't aware of what a powerband is or about the tranny. So they only can work with copycating others because they don't understand. When you copycat, you build in "stages" based on how the other person added their parts without understanding why they chose that part.



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Why do we emphasize packaging so much here?:


We're trying to show you how experienced people approach it and it's entirely different from the novice's way.


We're not trying to "push" our ideas on you. We are just trying to show you an alternative, proven successful method or approach other than copycating without understanding which we think is better and is used by more experienced people.



We're trying to educate people about what certain part's specs do to the engine power curve shape and how that part's dimensions ties in with other engine parts specs and the tranny.

(BTW no-one mentions that the tranny gear ratios ties to the engine parts choices on other boards because they don't know or don't want you to know.)

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Is there another reason for thinking there must be an order?:


Some people think "packaging means that some parts get upgraded along with others simply because it's easier to do both to save on installation costs (eg. cams & valvesprings with headporting, or lighter flywheel and LSD with new clutch, or rods with pistons).


That's not what we are talking about when we say "packaging".


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There's threads and articles here showing you where each part makes it's power, how to find where your tranny operates, and if the part flows enough. There's threads and articles here showing you how to go faster by basing your decisions on this approach.


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I don't understand what you mean still after reading all of this MD. What then? :


My advice based on my experience to you is this:



If you don't understand the ideas behind "engine packaging " or " engine combination" (i.e. starting with powerband location placement and peak power level as goals) , then, you should go with what you know and trust it.

Trust what you understand (even if it is based on building in some contrived order that people tell you to do or stages or Lego engine building) , no matter how misguided it is , because eventually you'll realize that as you gain experience through expensive trial & error, engine packaging is the better/cheaper and more direct way at lowering your et and lap times. After all, are we out to win dyno races where the highest peak hp wins or are we trying to have better 0-60 mph,1/4 mile et.'s, faster roll-on's in 3rd or 4th or 5th gear,orfaster laptimes?


By "Lego engine building" (i.e. what part do I get next in stages?), you are taking the long way around at arriving to the correct conclusions, by gaining the real world experience (and this experience is often disappointing in terms of the power gained or performance achieved for the buck you spent).


We're just trying to help you skip those disappointing steps based on our own experiences and learning from our own mistakes using the Lego method.


Integrating engine parts, including tying together the engine powerband to the gearing is not a new idea. In fact, it's the most basic of concepts for real racers.


Our whole website's performance layout is based on this idea of engine packaging. Each Common Topic thread or article is one idea that builds onto another idea to give you the sense of what packaging is about. You just have to read the ideas and connect them together to understand.


The irony is the name of the car you drive is called Integra..as in the word Integrate...the fact that most of people doing this fail to comprehend the significance of the name is, in itself, funny.
 

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In fact, you may want to change the title of this thread to "engine package Dis Order". (j/k)

There is no set order.

Having stages and thinking that you have to get things in a set order is a way of thinking where people buy the first thing they read on the JDM bling bling chatboards or the latest featured part in Import Tuner and Superstreet, ASAP.

Then they come onto the chatboards afterwards posting a thread entitled" "Help!!!! ASAP! I don't know how this works or how to install it or lost power with new bling bling part I got after i/h/e".

all joking aside:

look at where your rpm's land after an upshift at the redline before the fuel cut in each gear. Decide if you want that to be shifted up or down or if you like it where it is.

look for the engine powerband location that each new part delivers, as described in the articles, and choose the ones that will deliver the powerband that begins where your rpms fall to after an upshift and ends at your redline.

Examine how a part ties in with the overall function within each system (induction system, combustion system, exhaust system), as described in the articles and then go and buy away at your heart's content, in any order, at any time!

Oh! I almost forgot! :

BTW, TUNING is everything...there's much more work after the install...you think you're done after putting it together? Think again....choosing and purchasing wisely and installing is the easy part...

You must harmonize the engine to the new parts each time you add them. You don't just slap a part on and not make the whole engine adjust to the new way it breathes or burns. This involves both fuel tuning (at part throttle and full throttle) and ignition tuning.
 

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hey MD, a quick question. i know how important tuning is, but in my area there is no tuning that i know of (will find out more today, going to the jdm honda parts place, maybe they do it?) i plan on getting the same package as blueteg has, my question is will it hurt my engine with the 403s by not having tuning done right away? thanks
 

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it won't hurt your engine as long as you don't run it too lean but your engine won't run at it's peak level of performance. running the engine rich prevents catastrophic detonation but is not totally harmless. An overly rich engine will wash down the cylinder walls with fuel causing the rings not to seal properly. You lose oil out the exhaust and that in itself can cause wear in certain areas where oil starvation is not good (namely the bearings and the cam-rockers). Secondly running too rich will clog your cat honeycombs and destroy the cat eventually.

so you should try to locate a tuner (preferably one with an exhaust gas wideband O2 sensor) and have the tuning tools needed with cams (namely cam gears, FPR, and a fuel controller). That will complete the parts you need to get the powerband shape you want.
 

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yea, i realize my engine won't be at its full potential, and i would like to find a tuner asap. i am good friends with the local honda mechanic, do you think with a s-afc, and some cam gears, we would be able to get it to a decent a/f mixture?
 

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the cam gears just shifts the powerband up or down...it's the trade-off game..more top end for less midrange or more midrange for less top end.

the tuning tools that affect fuel, namely FPR and fuel controllers, work in tandem. Usually what you'll find is that you may need more fuel in one area and less fuel in another area of the rpm range.

The FPR raises the fuel delivery across the board through the entire rpm range. So you set it to get the air fuel ratio/torque you need in the rpm range that wanted a richer setting. Then you use the fuel controller to lean out the remaining other rpms back down to where they want it (based on the way the torque behaves in those rpms). In most cases you'll find that you'll be doing more leaning down than richening with the fuel controller.

So if you're tight on a budget and more interested in fuel tuning, then the fuel controller and FPR will have precedence over the cam gears.

Don't forget to re-adjust your ignition timing after each intake cam gear adjustment.
 

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I think you guys intimidated velociraptor. Hey velociraptor don't be afraid to ask follow-up questions after you have a better understanding of what you want and what you were told here. I apologize for being vague in my previous post, I had the best intentions in mind, I'm totally against that lego-building mentality, like are a majority of the members here. once you have a clear picture of what it is you want the outcome of your car to realistically be, these guys here will be more then happy in assisting you in the best ways to achieve those plans.
Caesar
 

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Caesar,

I'm sure he can answer for himself. I wouldn't underestimate anyone's ability to understand things.

I think this is the main problem with the media in North America. They assume the masses aren't smart and "talk down" to the audience. Instead we should be putting out a high standard and have people aim for that. Sure there needs to be help along the way but I'm not going to low ball the members here. They catch on quickly and have friends they can bounce the ideas presented here off of.

There's no intimidation factor involved. The board tries to answer a question as best that it can and in depth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Nah, didn't intimidate me, the thread ended up so deep that I forgot about it, then remembered last night, and came to check on it.

The only reason I asked, is because the internals I want, are too much for my stock exhaust and intake manifold, but the exhaust I want(2.5" hytech), seems to be too much for a stock gs-r's internals. I don't plan on "Lego building", but I can't buy it all at once($3700 + management), so I was wondering if there was sort of an accepted order to upgrading the engine, or if it was just a buy-as-you-can-afford situation. But you guys have answered my question, as usual. Thanks!
 

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What is a "powerband"???!!! (click here and read this)

MichaelDelaney on Feb/25/03 said:
look at where your rpm's land after an upshift at the redline before the fuel cut in each gear. Decide if you want that to be shifted up or down or if you like it where it is.

look for the powerband location each part delivers, as described in the articles, and choose the ones that will deliver the powerband that begins where your rpms fall to after an upshift. Examine how it ties in with the overall function within each system, as described in the articles and then buy away in any order at any time!

oh BTW, tuning is everything...there's much more work after the install...you think you're done after putting it together? think again....choosing and purchasing wisely and installing is the easy part...






Quote: MichaelDelaney on Feb/25/03
THERE IS NO SET ORDER OR STAGES TO PURCHASING PARTS !!!...

there is planning before you buy and knowing where you want to end up before you start.





Quote: MichaelDelaney on Mar/15/03 buy as you can afford and tune the engine after each addition.


pretty simple...what's the problem?
 

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the Lego engine building hall of shame. Love the one word replies in these threads too!

"Gen. 3 Staged Upgrades" thread here recently...Staged = Lego engine building method

"What Performance Parts Should I Add?" thread

"Better Performance" thread

"Next Part" thread

"What To Do Next?" thread

"parts stages" thread

"First things to get for more power? " thread

"what mod next (beginner questions)?" thread

"What's Next?" thread

"What Do I Do Next?" thread

"What mod. Next?? thread

"What Mods Next?" thread

THE LATEST ADDITIoN TO THE HALL OF SHAME

it's endless. I just stopped there because it was getting too funny about how many times it still comes up here including this thread.

What do people not understand about engine packaging? Help me to understand why people don't get it. thanks:
 

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another thread quote on this "milked to death" topic:

MichaelDelaney on Mar/15/03 said:
Lego of my Eggo...


you'll hear about this term "Lego (spellcheck approved by Sonic man) engine building" here at TI.

1. what it refers to is what you guys call "stages" (stage 1, 2,3,4, etc.). You see this sort of idea being hyped by the magazines and manufacturers.

They'll get you into a bad habit or routine of thinking that when you upgrade a brand new part , you'll be guaranteed an increase in peak hp (or if they're really good at getting you all excited about buying , they'll just vaguely advertise that it's an increase in power somewhere along your rpm range without specifying exactly where you'll see this gain).


2. The other bad routine thinking that they program into you is that the hp adds up each time you add a new part.

For example:


intake makes 7-8 whp

header makes 7-10 whp

exhaust makes 4-5 whp

cam gears makes 6-8 whp

TB makes 4-5 whp

Add them all up and they sum to 28-36 whp gain. Right?

So if you get all of these parts, one at a time in order, eventually you will make 28-36 whp.

I call this bogus creative "hp accounting".

It does not work this way all the time. You can add a new aftermarket part that has been rumored or hyped to make big power. Then, when you add it to your engine, it makes very little power gain or loses power.

Think about it. A GSR makes about on average 140-145 whp stock. Some very good ones make 150 whp stock from the factory. I've been doing this for 10 years running now. I've yet to see a GSR (having stock cams, unported head, and stock IM) make 178-186 whp with a healthy powerband from 6000-8000 rpm after adding in order new i/h/e, TB, and cam gears. It doesn't work that way.

Maybe I've been hanging around the wrong guys but to me, this is not reality.

3. The other mistake people make is when they take a part that gained 8 whp on one engine, like say a 70->68mm tapered TB on a monster build up on a 2L , 12.5:1 static CR B18C1 with a single stage IM, Toda Spec C's, headwork, and Toda headers with a 2.5 in. exhaust system and then, they expect that this part will make the same 8 whp on their stock GSR with only a DC 2 in. collector header /exhaust system and stock cams. How realistic is that expectation?

This is misapplication of info (or hype).

4. Then, there is this absolute complete ignorance about what a powerband is and the importance of where a powerband is located along the rpm range. The only performance indicator these Lego-builders fixate on is peak whp.

5. The last problem is the assumed idea that you just bolt these on and they magically will work instantly to give you that gain. I call this the "just bolt-on or slap on and walk away" fantasy. There is total ignorance about the notion of tuning the engine.

So you have 4 problems:

Lego building with hp accounting,

misapplication by extrapolation (taking info from one completely different engine package and applying it to your own),

the "just slap it on and walk away fantasy" (meaning all I have to do is install this right and I'm done),

and the peak hp fixation.



What is wrong with Lego engine building?


Well, unfortunately engines don't work 1 part at a time or with 1 part in isolation from the other parts.

Compatible parts or Integrated parts means that the specs from one part affect the performance of the parts attached to it and even some parts not attached to it.

If you get a part with the wrong spec, you can actually lose power because it ruins or unbalances the function of the neighbouring part (usually the most common mistake is to go too big but there are cases like in exhausts where people go too small). It makes power in the wrong part of the powerband.

Instead, here at TI we've been introducing the old common idea (that all racers and manufacturers know but won't tell you because it doesn't get you to buy lots of parts) called "engine packaging" or "engine combination".

The most common misunderstanding of engine packaging by novices is that they think it means you have to buy everything all at once. It does NOT mean this at all.

What engine packaging asks you to do is:

1. Ask what is my power goal?

think about your peak power goal first since this will determine how much air flow volume you will need. If you don't know your peak power goal then your engine may not breathe in enough air to make that power. So if your power goal is very high, you may need FI rather than N/A to achieve it. A very practical notion have before you start, since FI parts specs are completely the opposite to N/A parts specs.

2. once you know your power goal and have an idea of how much flow capacity or flow volume you need, the next thing engine packaging asks you to do is ask:

Where would I like to have my powerband?

We cover what a powerband is in the COMMoN TOPICS.

Basically it's where your highest torque is located along the rpm range...is it high rpm? or is it midrange rpm?

How wide is the powerband? The width of the powerband is as important as it's location. Torque is what accelerates your car...not hp or rpm. We explain that idea in the COMMoN TOPICS too BTW.

The tranny gearing must drop your rpms into your powerband after an upshift, or else you will not be accelerating. Instead, you'll be wasting time with the throttle mashed to the ground WAITING for the rpms to climb back up into the powerband (the part that accelerates you). If you aren't accelerating, you are coasting or slowing down...that's when people pass you even though you have the throttle foot planted to the floor.

So a part throttle midrange powerband is for people who prefer street fighting and a high rpm full throttle powerband (starting at 6000 rpm and going up) is for track or strip racers.

3. Now that you have chosen your power goal and powerband, it's time to choose the parts you need to get them in terms of engine systems.

The engine has 4 systems:

intake or induction system (intake, TB, IM, headport/valve seat angles, cams, valves)
combustion system (fuel delivery, pistons, rods, crank)
exhaust system (header, cat, exhaust)
ignition and electronic control system (ECU, ignition)

In each system, every part has to be compatible in spec with the others for a particular powerband location goal. They all have to work together and not "fight against each other". Lego engine builds don't take this into account. You can get parts fighting or cancelling each other with Lego-ing.


Parts come in different specs.

Specs are designed for a certain power goal and powerband.

They are geared to make power in one rpm area called the powerband but COMPROMISE the power in the non-powerband rpms (meaning it doesn't make power or loses power in these other rpms that are not your powerband ).

So when you go to buy, please shop for parts that will combine to give you the powerband that you need.

Believe it or not, in some cases when you combine the right combination of parts and plan out the right specs to work together (like a team), they can make more power than their individual, claimed or advertised hp gain.

The difference between engine packaging and Lego building?: Lego building is by trial and error. You try this new part and see if it makes power in complete ignorance of how it work. Lego-ing relies on faith & hype. So if you add a new bling bling part and it doesn't work or gains less than what you expected, you have to search for a different bling bling brand name, to see if that now works. You can unbalance an engine by adding a part that has the wrong size by guessing like this. You are bouncing around like a pinball machine ball, randomly going from one hype opinion or ad to the next hoping & praying that the next one chosen will be the right one.

With engine packaging you look at the engine in terms of systems (intake, combustion, exhaust) and then select parts within the system that meets the right spec for your planned stated goals (peak hp & powerband location). The engine stays balanced and all the parts work together in harmony towards the same goal without conflicts.

It takes research (brain work), effort (sweat), and careful planning (patience, no rushing). You have to understand how each part works to get a certain flow number and powerband location. You aren't running around like a puppet to the hype-meisters. You rely on a different standard to choosing your parts that is separate from their opinions and hype. You can know what you need before you go out to shop. You determine how the engine behaves instead of them telling you how to behave.

It's the smart way of doing things.

one last point...engine packagers know that getting the correct part is only 1/3 of the way to success. Installing it correctly and then breaking in & tuning the engine properly ( a skill no-one talks about in the Lego builders) are the other 2 pieces of the puzzle.

cheers
 

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Wow. MD, I knew most of that already but I didn't quite understand some of it fully beforehand. Thanks much for it !
 
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