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Dear Techies,
I am looking into getting a block girdle (ahh the wide selection
) anyway, yes so after reading an article MD posted, he stated GSR girdles are fine. Well that might be true for replacement and stuff, but as far as an ls, with ls/vtec, what else am I going to need to replace/buy to make such a girdle fit an ls? I know personally the endyn and golden eagle require some new windage tray, oil pickup, etc. Is this true of the OEM GSR also?
 

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from my old friend Mike K said:
All Parts are Listed by OEM Honda part number:

GS-R Block Stiffener -- 11950-P73-J00
GS-R Main Bolt(6)-- 90007-PAA-T01
GS-R Oil Pickup -- 15220-P72-000
GS-R Windage Tray-- 11221-P72-000
GS-R Oil Pan-- 11200-P72-010



** NOTE ** The GS-R girdle is NOT a direct bolt-in. The reason being is that the LS #3 cap is taller than the rest. You need to modify either the GS-R girdle or the center main cap on the LS to make it fit. This can be compensated for two ways

METHOD #1

Remove the center main cap, have it milled down until it stands flush with the other 4 caps. After doing this you WILL need to align bore the crank journals and replace the bearings. Nice if you plan on having the motor out, or giving the block to a machine shop to have your work done. Although by doing it this way you are weakening the stronger of the 2 pieces (Girdle vs Main Cap)

Also, you will have to shave off the casting marks that are on-top of the # 2 and 4 caps. These are arrows that tell you which way the caps face when installed. You can file these off yourself with a course file. Be wary of metal shavings.

METHOD #2

Have the center "leg" on the GS-R girdle milled down to accommodate for the taller center cap. This is the way I did it. For reference the exact amount that need to be milled off is 14mm.

Also for this Mod you'll need to mill a bit off the ends too. on either side there is a what apprears to be a dowel hole just behind the bolts. 2mm will need to be taken down from these.

Step 1)

Remove the LS Oil pan, Oil pick up, and Windage tray. Be sure to keep your gaskets for the oil pan and oil pick b/c they can be re-used.

Step 2)

Un-bolt the 3 center main caps. The Caps are doweled in place. Place the GS-R girdle over the main caps and bolt it back together using the 6 GS-R bolts. Torque to 49 ft/lbs.

Step 3)

Re-assemble the rest of the bottom-end using the GS-R components.



Torque Down Sequence:




caps 1 & 5 torque to 56 lb ft

caps 2,3,4 (i.e. the girdle)torque to 49 lb ft
 

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3 vs. 5 MAINS


Stock b18c 3 main girdle:








Golden Eagle 3 main girdle:




Z10 3 main girdle:




B series 5 main girdles:

ERL



Spoon



Don't know if you have to machine the main caps for the extra 2 mains that are braced.

It's always good to change out the oil pan gasket, dowels, and main bolts.


Correct me if I'm off but don't the K-series blocks run a 5 main girdle with a segmented block?
 

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MichaelDelaney on Dec/17/04 said:
Correct me if I'm off but don't the K-series blocks run a 5 main girdle with a segmented block?


well since I had to check anyway, I found this from Dave Coleman over at SCC magazine:

Quote:
where the B18C used a sturdy main bearing girdle for bottom-end strength, the K20 does one better, integrating the main bearing caps into a crankcase extension.

This "split crankcase" design is becoming the standard for new engines, as it delivers noise, vibration and harshness benefits as well as improved strength...

As expected, the crankshaft is a high-strength forging with micro-polished journals...

The Type S piston is domed for an 11.0:1 compression ratio (the base RSX is 9.8:1) and has low-friction coatings on the piston skirts. The bottom of the Type S pistons are cooled with high-pressure oil squirters as well.
segmented crankcases reduce windage losses as well and have been utilized in the sport motorcycle world (even street bikes) for a long time now. The latest Suzuki GSXR600-1000's line up uses a segmented block in their street bikes.
 

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The Spoon girdle has been discontinued. Or so it looks. That 5 main girdle looks pretty interesting. The web site claims it's already been used stock in some honda motors (should I say a honda one like it), I believe they mentioned the B24?
 

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I went to a Spoon distributor, found that girdle which is really one part of a pan/girdle combination and it was listed as discontinued. it's not clear that it ever made it to production though. The other site I went to listed it as a prototype.

11200-16B-G00 - Pan 2022 pounds (price)
11200-16B-G01 - Girdle 1866 pounds (price)

http://www.tokyo-express.co.uk/spoon/others.php.htm

Says it's still available so, maybe the other site was wrong.


http://www.aj-racing.com/spoon-sports/chassis.php?chassis=EK&type=Engine

Claims it's discontinued.

Pricing the pan at about 6-8K US dollars might be as good as saying it's discontinued. You know how the japanese don't like to say "no".
 

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I dont know much about girdles, but this is a good a thread as any to ask.

My understanding about the girdle is to strengthen the engine because of the sideloading caused by the pison and RS ratio.

What is the reason for Honda making a girdle that only strengthens the middle?
 

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Have to ask honda, I imagine the bulkheads of the block ends afford some stiffening over the inner bearing caps. Honda apparently did use the full lengh one on some engines.

I imagine in their testing, for the load the engine typically see's a full length girdle wasn't necessary or cost effective.
 

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the girdle has nothing to do with sleeve sideloading as they are located at the base and not at the major axis sidloading thrust points further up.

the girdle is to stabilize the mains.


you have to understand that the main bearings are supporting structures to the entire block and act as conduits of heat generated by the crank to the coolant.

The mains hold the crank in place and in alignment.

It has nothing to do with r/s.
 

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MichaelDelaney on Mar/06/04 said:
Quote: from my old friend Mike K All Parts are Listed by OEM Honda part number:

GS-R Block Stiffener -- 11950-P73-J00
GS-R Main Bolt(6)-- 90007-PAA-T01
GS-R Oil Pickup -- 15220-P72-000
GS-R Windage Tray-- 11221-P72-000
GS-R Oil Pan-- 11200-P72-010



** NOTE ** The GS-R girdle is NOT a direct bolt-in. The reason being is that the LS #3 cap is taller than the rest. You need to modify either the GS-R girdle or the center main cap on the LS to make it fit. This can be compensated for two ways

METHOD #1

Remove the center main cap, have it milled down until it stands flush with the other 4 caps. After doing this you WILL need to align bore the crank journals and replace the bearings. Nice if you plan on having the motor out, or giving the block to a machine shop to have your work done. Although by doing it this way you are weakening the stronger of the 2 pieces (Girdle vs Main Cap)

Also, you will have to shave off the casting marks that are on-top of the # 2 and 4 caps. These are arrows that tell you which way the caps face when installed. You can file these off yourself with a course file. Be wary of metal shavings.

METHOD #2

Have the center "leg" on the GS-R girdle milled down to accommodate for the taller center cap. This is the way I did it. For reference the exact amount that need to be milled off is 14mm.

Also for this Mod you'll need to mill a bit off the ends too. on either side there is a what apprears to be a dowel hole just behind the bolts. 2mm will need to be taken down from these.

Step 1)

Remove the LS Oil pan, Oil pick up, and Windage tray. Be sure to keep your gaskets for the oil pan and oil pick b/c they can be re-used.

Step 2)

Un-bolt the 3 center main caps. The Caps are doweled in place. Place the GS-R girdle over the main caps and bolt it back together using the 6 GS-R bolts. Torque to 49 ft/lbs.

Step 3)

Re-assemble the rest of the bottom-end using the GS-R components.





Torque Down Sequence:



caps 1 & 5 torque to 56 lb ft

caps 2,3,4 (i.e. the girdle)torque to 49 lb ft


I like method # 2. It seems more logical to me. Instead of milling the strong steel main your milling the weaker aluminum with out sacraficing the integrity of the main. I however had a question that I hope you guys could answer. Instead of milling the ls's caps or the gsr girdle, Is it possible to just swap out the three center mains? Would you still have to align bore the crank journals? If you can interchange the crankshafts why not the mains.
 

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MichaelDelaney on Dec/20/04 said:
the girdle has nothing to do with sleeve sideloading as they are located at the base and not at the major axis sidloading thrust points further up.

the girdle is to stabilize the mains.

you have to understand that the main bearings are supporting structures to the entire block and act as conduits of heat generated by the crank to the coolant.

The mains hold the crank in place and in alignment.

It has nothing to do with r/s.
Was digging info in the forum, trying to learn what is a block girdle... then found this and a few other threads, not too helpful.

So what is the purpose and benefits of a girdle? Beside reinforceing (or just stabilize?) the main?
 

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that's it.

there's no other raison d'etre.

the mains shifting around from block flex at higher rpms & engine temps will screw your main bearing clearances and when there's a gap created between the bearing and the rubbing surface , you're talking damage.


take a look at the main bearing clearances...really understand how much play or give you actually have. remember we're not talling in the scale of mm but 0.02 mm increments (one thousandth of an inch). People really fail to see how precise it has to be when they don't do the build themselves. that's less than the width of a hair to give you an idea.


there's a misguided belief out there on the forums that girdles support the sleeve...they don't. they're too low at the bottom of the block and the high sideload stress points from the piston (determined by the rod ratio or rod to crank angle & piston speed) are much higher up the sleeve near the midway point of the height.

Main Thrust loading points indicated by arrows:

 

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ahh... so it wouldn't hurt just to install one regardless what application we do (NA or FI), it just add reliability to the motor by making less play inside.

Would a FI setup need such upgrade? Or am i better off save the $ and upgrade my sleeve or connecting rod (eventho i plan to stay in low boost)...?

To add more info into this thread, Function-7 also make block girdle for b-series, i was looking at their LCA and saw the girdle and it hit my interest and wanna find out what it does. But i guess i don't really such expensive girdle. :)

5-Cap Block Girdle for B-Series
 

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it can't hurt.

if the mains flexes you're screwed eventually. FI or NA.

You see some blocks getting so bad that they have to align hone the mains for the crankshaft journals to make sure that it's straight.

5 cap is always better than 3 cap and 3 cap is wayyyy better than no cap...LOL

but it's a bit of overkill to go to a 5 cap girdle if you're not doing much on the modification end that will rev it up and loard the block.
 
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