Team Integra Forums banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Okay, let's get down to absolute specifics. How much does a JRSC setup cost--totally complete with reliability (not optimum power) in mind. A basic setup, not a later-on, power-minded setup (i.e., with 8 psi and all that). Basically, the best, basic setup to get you reliably going (see my other thread on this...).

Right now I've compiled these parts and prices:

Part, Price, Source
[*]Jackson Racing Supercharger Kit, $ 2,995.00, Superchargersonline.com[*]MAP Controller, $ 209.95, Jacksonracing.com[*]Comptech High Volume/High Pressure Fuel Pump, $ 134.95, Comptechusa.com[*]Comptech Fuel Pressure Regulator, $ 279.95, Comptechusa.com[*]HKS 400cc Bosch Injector, $ 88.20, Overboost.com Store[*]AEM High Volume Fuel Rail (Clear), $ 139.96, Overboost.com Store[/list]
TOTAL: $3,848.01

So what am I missing (besides spark plugs and a BTC) and/or where are better prices/parts?

(BTW, on a side note, I'm also planning on adding a Comptech Icebox intake for a JRSC, Comptech 4-2-1 headers (I'm not sure if they're appropriate for a SC'd setup), a Comptech exhaust, and replacing the temporary MAP Controller solution with a Hondata 3b ECU, as well as having AEM Tru-Time Cam Gears for tuning purposes. Don't know if I'm missing anything there, either...)

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,532 Posts
From what I have read, DC Sports 4-2-1 have shorter primaries and are better suited for a supercharger. If you don't mind fiddling with fitment issues, kamikazee header is a great bang for the buck when it comes with superchargers.

Gvtec's article also recommends

1. one heat range colder plug
2. High-flow fuel pump
3. Cartech FMU (20005i or 2025 models)
4. JR BTC
5. Boost, A/F, electrical & mechanical fuel pressure gauges
6. Dyno tuning.

Lots more information in gvtec's article here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
413 Posts
I really think that you could drop that fuel rail and save yourself about $140. Your stock fuel rail should be fine for what you are looking to do. Also I would exchange the AEM cam gears for skunk2 cam gears.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Well Turbo is nice for some applications but not all. It's harder to install requires more tuning and is not as good for autox'ing from what everyone says.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,076 Posts
i heard the same thing about turbo in autox too. but how much gain can you possibly get out of SC with a b18b? jackson racing site says 40%. say 100 whp + 40%. that's nothing to write home about, really especially for that kind of money. as for autoxing, wouldn't you be able to install a smaller, street turbo and just keep the rpm high?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,953 Posts
If I were going to put together a setup of parts that would #1 be more reliable and #2 not lock yoruself into the opportunity of not being able to upgrade out of it, this would be my "wish list:"

1- Supercharger
2- Walbro GSS-342 (not the JR high-flow model, as that's the poopy GSS-314)
3- NGK BCPR7ES @ 0.034" (Search for stock # 1095)
4- JR BTC or MSD 6BTM
5- Vortech S-FMU or Cartech 2025 FPR
6- B&M mechanical fuel pressure gauge

With all this, you've addressed fuel pressure and being able to tune it in your driveway or dyno, on-boost spark retard, and off-boost timing advance. You can't get any more basic than this, IMO.

I reccomend keeping the stock fuel rail, as it's a FO-SHO modification at our output level. one 440cc ijector isn't going to do you anything but make you wonder where the other three are, but it's overkill on a engine being operateedd with fuel pressure regulators. The BTC/BTM do the exact same thing, but the the MSD has the spark (you'll want to a gap of 0.045" with the MSD unit); shop for which ever one you can get the best buy on. Avoid the MAP sensor, if you ever plan to go for any injector larger than sock; the calibration in this unit is for 240cc injectors and will over-fuel if larger injectors are used. There is no need to buy something and have to sell it later; painting yourself into a corner, so to speak.

You will later need the 440cc injectors to use the Hondata, and this is where your ultimate setup design comes into play.With the Hondata or any other stand alone, you will not need the Cartech, gauges, and the BTC/BTM. So your options are buy all that crap now, then sell it later or save for another month or so and not loose your ass on the resale.

A stand alone setup "wish list" would be:

1- Supercharger
2- same plugs are before
3- same fuel pump
4- Hondata, OBD2 to OBD1 connection, and OBD1 ECU
5- 440cc injectors with clips for the OBD2 setup

If you've got all this, you might as well run 8psi. You've got the tools to support it, so why not.

As far as your bolt-ons, the Icebox is a good unit. A Kamakazi (sp?) with the 2.5" collector is far better, but you need to size match your cat and exhaust to take use of this add on. Read one of the exhaust flow articles, if you haven't already. It's a complete system, as one restrictive part clogs the whole path.

And as always, dyno tune...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,532 Posts
Dragonz: I have seen dyno's of B18B's making 160 - 180whp on a basic JRSC setup. Not bad at all considering its not peakie gains, but strong gains throughout the powerband.

Yeah, you could get a smaller turbo that would spool quicker but its still not optimal. When entering a turn, you are going to braek and let off the throttle until you hit the acceleration point in the curve. At that point you shouldn't just mash down the throttle either, its a smooth opening till WOT. Sure you can keep the RPM's up but a 4cyl engine isn't going to be creating alot of exhaust until you really mash the throttle.

Don't wanna start a turbo vs JRSC debate here or anything, as its really not on topic. Hope that information helps Robert in his choice to go with JRSC or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,882 Posts
supercharger cheap
map controller cheap
high flow, high pressure fuel pump cheap
cartech 2025 FMU cheap, call them, and ask for it, it's like 229

with that kit, which for 6 psi is fine, b/c the map controller allows you to run near-stock timing almost like the BTC does, but w/o the hassle. yes, it's bad once you get larger injectors, but you don't really need them for 6psi or even 8psi...
pricing:
[*]JRSC kit from nopi (modacar.com is close to this price) 2700[*]JR Map Controller from nopi, 210 shipped[*]walbro 242 pump, the good one, 210[*]cartech 2025 fmu 230[/list]

3,350 +/- a little depending on shipping.

notice, you probably don't need the fancy 2025 cartech fmu if you're getting the map controller--it takes care of your tip-in fuel worries. if you're scared the JR FMU is going to stick open on you, you can get the same thing (basically) from vortech, and it's much cheaper, in the 140 range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
dragontegz on Aug/01/02 said:
non-vtecs are not really great with superchargers. with all that money, why not just go turbo?
It's not for my RS--it's for my GS-R that I'm getting as soon as I've sold my RS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Gvtec:

I feel like such a n00b.
I basically have no idea what the hell I'm doing. My knowledge of the parts I'm picking out is sketchy at best--the articles definately help, though.

For example, I don't exactly know what a BTC really does. That's really sad, I know...
I didn't know if one was necessary.

I assume that the "2- Walbro GSS-342 (not the JR high-flow model, as that's the poopy GSS-314)" is a fuel pump and I also assume that this suggestion means it's either better than or cheaper than the Comptech one. I'm not really dead-set on Comptech stuff--it's just availability that I like. But, I'll look around for that instead.

Okay, admittedly, I have no idea what a "3- NGK BCPR7ES @ 0.034" (Search for stock # 1095)" is. A spark plug? I'm not sure.
Also, if you know any good places online to buy them (anyone!), I'd appreciate it!

The BTC/BTM do the exact same thing, but the the MSD has the spark (you'll want to a gap of 0.045" with the MSD unit); shop for which ever one you can get the best buy on.
I didn't even know that these were compatible upgrades (i.e., one being an alternative to the other). This is embarassing...

I've liked the idea of getting an MSD anyway but I didn't know that I should get it to put on with my JRSC. The stuff I'm looking at is stuff that I wanna put on with the unit from the get-go; so the Hondata's kind of a later on thing, as is 8 psi.

I don't have to worry about it any time soon--I can't even get my RS sold to buy my GS-R... then at $7.35/hour, it'll take me forever to earn all the money to buy all this stuff.
That's my main concern. Hopefully I'm gonna get a raise sooner or later. I conserve my money rather well, so it shouldn't take me too long--but having everything stock in the meantime is going to be agonizing...


So, I guess I'll go with the Kamakazi headers and... a larger exhaust (which is disappointing because it'll probably obnoxious). My problem is that I picked the Comptech ones by quality of the unit, asking around, and determining that it would suit my tastes for an exhuast. But, I have, admittedly, no idea what the diameter of it is.

As far as the cat goes--well, I wasn't quite prepared for that, seeing as how it's completely illegal.
Oh, well. Like my dad (a mechanic) said, "What is someone gonna pull you over and check underneath your car to make sure you've got a catalytic converter on there?"


Okay, back to the drawing board. Anyone know of any good exhausts to go with that header? And would a Comptech (yes, I know--Comptech again) high-flow cat be okay? I'm thinking probably not, but it's the only one that comes to mind.

Thanks all!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
I'm guessing everyone will say Carsound for the cat? And if you don't want an "annoying" sounding exhaust there's always Hytech, if you're willing to save.

Well anyways I know I was the guy asking about the "all-motor goals" but I never knew why I didn't give a supercharger a second-look (listening to all my damn turbo friends must have been it). Turns out it'd be perfect for my goals, so I guess I'm going FI after all. I'm pretty much in the same boat as RonaldMcDonald here. Damn I feel your pain on the 7.35 an hour deal man.

I question I have for Gvtec. You have the Comptech Icebox right? I thought the air gets heated going through the blower so cold air wouldn't matter? I know it's a short style tube but the Ice Box add-on lets it suck cold air right? So does the cold air work or not? Wondering cause I had an IceBox on the list myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,882 Posts
www.clubplug.net has cheap spark plugs, and cheap shipping.

IMO, the BTC or any compatible replacement don't do much. i'm running 12 degrees advance timing (that's only 2 from stock, mind you) with the MAP Controller. it's true it might over-fuel if you get larger injectors, but who's to say that once you drop that 400 bucks for big ones, and you're not gonna figure out a way to lower fuel pressures across the board to not overfuel. and the map controller=0 tip-in problems, and little to no tuning work. it's safe, and easy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,953 Posts
The MAP controller does its wonder by faking a signal to lengthen the injectors. There are no if/ands/buts about it. It will not work with larger injectors. It doesn't have any thing to do with fuel pressure; it’s the size of the aftermarket injectors. Many people before you have tried without success.

I'm going to try to hit up all the questions as best I can, so welcome to a crash into forced induction, supercharger style.

To be successful in engine tuning, you are going to need control over three things: more air, more fuel, and the right amount of spark. Bolting up the supercharger covers the “more air” part, but it’s the other two that can really toast the engine.

More fuel- This sounds more wicked than it really is. “How much and how big” are the usual questions. I suggest an aftermarket rising rate fuel pressure regulator (RRFPR or FPR for short). If you ever shop around, you’ll notice some FPR are stated having an output in regards to a ratio. For this example, we will use the FPR that come with the JR kit; it is a 5:1 unit. The first number, “5,” represents how many pounds of fuel pressure the unit will increase, in regards to one pound of positive manifold pressure, being represented by the second number, “1.”So if you are running 7PSI of maximum boost with this FPR, the output will help you decide how to pressure match a fuel pump that will meet your requirements.

Maximum boost X Rate of FPR = Additional fuel pressure ADDED to the system.
6 X 5 = 30 + 52 (stock GSR fuel pressure) = 82 LB total maximum fuel pressure

What does 8PSI produce?
8 X 5 = 40 + 52 = 92 LB

I rave the Cartech 2025 or Vortech S-FMU, as these have adjustable ratios. The grand idea behind these is you get to tune the ratio, as most power is made on the edge of detonation. one can turn to that edge and ride it in comfort, but do the tuning on a dyno. I found a nice linear power gain by changing the ratio to about 4.6:1. The JR FPR is setup to be rich, as it’s designed to bolt-up and cruse. These units also ramp the fuel pressure, while the engine approaches boost. Ramping the fuel pressure in vacuum does the job of creating a smooth transition from vacuum to boost. The JR FPR and any other doesn’t do this, as they only activate on 1lb of boost; this makes the engine operate in a lean spot which can cause hesitation on slow throttle transitions. Drivability is the key here, as well as adjustable performance if you ever get 310cc injectors.

So you’ve got a grasp on how additional fuel is delivered, but now we need to address a constant, reliable supply.Here is how the JR high-flow unit stacks up against the one I recommend at equal pressures. Remember, both pumps are rated as high-flow models at 255LPH.

Pressure--JR High-flow--GSS-342
0---------------75-----------76
10--------------72-----------73
20--------------67-----------68
30--------------63-----------63
40--------------53-----------59
50--------------54-----------54
60--------------49-----------50
70--------------40-----------45
80--------------29-----------37
90--------------0------------27
100-------------0------------11
110-------------0-------------1

“0” means the pump doesn’t move any fuel AKA dead motor.

I don’t know the flow rates of the Comptech, as they are not good about giving information in this kind of detail. Both of the pumps above, as well as the Comptech, are 255LPH and “high-flow” models. You can’t judge a pump based on these two terms above. There are stronger more expensive pumps on the market, but this is the cheapest and most reliable I’ve seen.

Also, the bigger pump flows more fuel at every PSI level. Increase in fuel flow will affect the fuel consumption, at the fuel pump stand point.

Injectors act like a dimmer switch: full on, full off, and points in the middle. The stock ECU doesn’t know the size or cares; it just needs injectors of the same resistance voltage to work. Increasing the total volume of fuel, doesn’t affect the ECU, as it doesn’t have a way to measure the fuel pressure. The ECU assumes the fuel pressure is in the 48~52LB area with a stock fuel pump and is tuned for such levels. By jacking the fuel pressure to 90LB on-boost, the consumption level of fuel is preoperational. This is how all FI engines with aftermarket FPRs operate. This knowledge is also transferable to turbocharging. When one changes the flow rate of the injectors, fuel pump, and FPR, everything changes in a linear fashion. A lot of guys of guys go for the 310cc and readjust all their pressure settings, so they can operate in the strongest part of the fuel pump’s power band. It’s a total system, as not one part is better than another.

Timing- I first suggest you read the articles on cam timing and how it affects cylinder pressure. Cam timing directly affects the spark advance, as the rotor is connected to the intake cam on our cars. The idea for any application is to have the gas burnt and ready to expel by something like 10 ATDC (I don’t remember the exact degree, so don’t shoot me). This places the piston on the down stroke, so all the pressure will transfer the piston down and make the engine work. The ECU still assumes it’s operating as a NA. Being such, timing is modified as high levels of spark advance in mid-throttle and more aggressive at WOT. This is done because fuel burns at a steady rate.When RPM is increased, more time is needed to complete the burn; this is the reason you’ll see 35 BTDC advance at WOT. The timing advance is based off of the static/dynamic compression ratio of the engine. The more tightly compressed the combustion mixture (read as higher compression) the less spark advance is needed. With FI, one is stuffing more air/fuel into the cylinder (read as raising the CR). For this reason, less timing advance is needed during on-boost performance. To get by without additional aftermarket parts, one has to retard their static timing; this is done by twisting the distributor counterclockwise, which forces timing retard to be linear. I believe JR recommends something like 8~10 degrees static advance, where stock advance is 16 degrees. Doing this makes for safe on-boost timing advance, but kills off-boost drivability. The car will feel laggy and unresponsive to quick throttle input at low RPM. Static timing retard will also cause the engine to operate at higher temps, during idle; this is an old trick used to get a vehicle to pass emissions as the extra heat helps burn off the extra hydrocarbons.

The JR BTC and MSD 6BTM are timing retard devices that have a dial. The dial operates as a ratio, again in a timing: boost fashion. This is best illustrated on the MSD unit, as it has number on the dial. “0-1-2-3” are the ratios. Having the dial set to “1” means the timing is retarded 1 degree for every pound of boost and so on. There are increments in between, so you can tune it to your needs. With the BTC, try a 10-o’clock position as a starting place and about 1.75 on the MSD. You only want to advance the timing as much needed, as too much advance will complete the combustion, before the magic ATDC area we talked about before. Advancing too soon is what causes internals break.

Having one of these units will allow for stock or advanced static timing and you have all that off-boost power. It makes for such a better driving car all the way around.

Spark plugs- These are the lifeline of your ignition system. They are rated in a number system, where the higher the number is a “hotter” plug. Having one heat range colder is a good choice, as the ignition of the mixture isn’t as blunt. The gap of the plug is the distance form the electrode to the tip. Stock gap on a GSR is 1.3mm, noted by the “xxxxxx-13” on the end of the plug’s model number. This is a suitable gap for the stock ignition system, but is too wide for FI. FI is all about a more concentrated mixture, so the wide gap makes the small spark travel a greater distance before the ignition can take place. Many times, this can lead to what is called a “misfire.” To combat this issue, the gap is shortened, making the distance shorter.

If you’ve got a MSD unit, the extra spark energy can easily travel thru the dense mixture without a problem. Widen the gap and now the mixture is being ignited more thoroughly. This also shortens the need for on-boost timing advance, so adjust the boost: retard rate accordingly.

The plug I recommended is also a copper plug, as they are very cheap at $2 a unit. I replace them about every 10,000 miles, as they are priced fairly and operate best in like-new condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,953 Posts
I wouldn't consider the header, intake, cat, and exhaust to take any president over the real power makers: your tuning tools.

A shorter primary hearder will help evacuate the burn gasses, but doesn't do you any good until you get the entire system up to a larger internal diameter. I consider this the last level of upgrading, as it's expensive and has the smallest yield. A 2.5" system is a bonus, as just about everything we get is a 60mm system. From talking with John at Hytech, his 2.5" exhaust is almost stock like in sound, giving it the perk of less noise and more flow. I believe it's something like $650, being more pricey as it's hand made.

I like the Comptech Ice Box setup, as it offers the properties of a short ram and a tube that actually fits our car. The supercharger shiftes the throttle body to the left about 2", so you'll have to cut your AEM or whatever to get it to fit. After that, it still doens't have a good fit. I choose this unnit based on the fact it wont come off, like my hacked up Iceman would. If there are huge gains or what not, I've got no clue. I honneslty made this purchase based on fitment first, and being a short ram second. Haven't dynoed with it either, so we'll see one day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
I have a Jackson Racing SuperCharger for sale. You should buy mine =) Complete with the 10 psi upgrade.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,536 Posts
what magazine did you copy that from Garret??? just playing, man! That was very informative and easy to understand! Everyone else catch that? i'm sure he can explain it in much more simpler terms if need be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Gvtec said:
The JR BTC and MSD 6BTM are timing retard devices that have a dial. The dial operates as a ratio, again in a timing: boost fashion...
Okay, prices I've got real quick for these units are $482.95 for the JR BTC and $542.63 for the MSD 6BTM. But from the look of it the MSD's the way to go because not only do you get the timing control but you also get the MSD ignition stuff, too.

But, later on, with a Hondata ECU, you can tune these things specifically for each part of the rev range right? I mean, it just seems so... impercise to generically change these things. Of course, that's what I want in the initial setup, but will I still be able to use the MSD later on with a Hondata ECU?
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top