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Discussion Starter #1
Are there any companys that produce aftermarket crankshaft and rod bearings? I heard the stock ones are preaty strong. Im planing on rebuilding my engine this summer and want to go with all preformance.
 

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you'll pay big bucks for a custom crankshaft. they START at $2600 for a custom billet piece. What non-stock stroke are you using to require a custom aftermarket one?

AEBS/R&D, Eagle, and Crower/Bensons can make you an aftermarket 4340 billet fully counterweighted piece but Crower states a 6-8 mo. wait.

http://www.aebsracing.com/p21.html


http://www.crower.com/cat/import/honda/stroker.shtml


You really don't need to change from the stock fully counterweighted (8-weight, fully-balanced on an itr) forged high alloy steel crankshaft, if you are looking for strength. The forging process like any other part that is forged provides a continuous grain (like grain in wood) which are strong, instead of weaker broken incomplete grains seen from casting. Stock cranks are the best. BTW this is also true for stock Honda rod bearings and ignition...in some cases, you can't beat Honda stock. In the past, some people wandered off and experimented with Federal Mogul rod bearings instead of stock Honda rod bearings, for example, and they paid the price, in more ways than one.

You can get the stock crankshaft balanced and blueprinted which is much more effective than getting a custom billet crankshaft if you aren't looking for a unique stroke.

Some things you can ask for are:

- Crankshaft index ground, micropolished and oil holes chamfered


- Crankshaft Nitride hardened

- Crankshaft Fully Race-Prepped: Index ground, Oil holes enlarged and chamfered, Weights detailed and de-flashed, Straightened and Nitride hardened, Micropolished.

The pressed-in oil galley plugs can be drilled out and replaced with screw-in plugs which are loctited & staked into position securely. The oil (galleys)passages are brush cleaned with solvent before the plugs are placed, to remove any centrifuged oil, debris, and gunk. The journal's oil holes are chamfered with a grinder (again, the factory has done this already for you but in some models chamfering may be needed).

You can round off or knife-edge the counterweights to reduce windage losses as the crank journals cut through the oil in the wet sump oil pan.

To increase strength, the forging parting lines can be ground off to reduce any sharp edges which can attract cracks under stress loading.

If you are looking to make the crank stronger, some of the exotic things you can do include shotpeening to harden the crank and checking it for straightness afterwards. I believe the Honda crank is pre-shotpeened from the factory already though (You can tell if shotpeening was done by the pebbly texture seen on non-crank journal machined areas). Some hardcore people nitride coat and cryotreat the crank to improve the strength of the crank journal surface....this hardens the journals further, makes them more heat resistant, increases the fatigue strength, and decreases internal stress.


here's a good link describing what cryotreating involves, if you are interested:

http://www.fountainheadcryo.com/what_the_heck_is_it.htm

Definitely get her dynamically balanced if you do work on the crank.

As Mike Kojima states in his book, many 500+ hp engines use stock cranks that have no prep work done whatsoever. So if you are on a tight budget and this is not a race only motor looking for every tiny bit, I would not worry about it..balancing and blueprinting is fine. I think micropolishing and knife-edging are pretty hardcore and removing forged parting lines and removing casting flaws out of the inside of the block won't reveal major hp gains compared to say a using dry sump oil system in a race-only engine.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the overwhelming information. I think ill keep my crankshaft and buy new stock bearings.
 

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spend your money on blueprinting and balancing the bottom end to ensure they are within stock clearances and specs instead. That's where the smart money lies. It's a good idea to use Honda bearings which are blueprinted for the clearances specified by the connecting rod manufacturer you are using. Blueprinting rod bearing clearances is much better than just plastigauging them.

Your local machine shop who does Hondas (ie. worked with aluminum blocks before) can help you with choosing the services you need for your bottom end build up.
 

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Wouldnt a lighter crankshaft reduce parasitic weight and improve performance?

Lets assume that money was not a concern, what would be the best solution for a B16A block in terms of a crankshaft?

I read that removing any parasitic weight from the drivetrain is always good. I emailed Eagle Rods about their crankshafts and they say that theirs weights 26 pounds and the stock one 34 pounds. What kind of improvement can this provide and is it worth it?

Thanks
Ed
 

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I think that if money was not a concern you could probably get a custom crank that was lighter. But I think your money would be better spent elsewhere like a lightend flywheel and improving the way your car breathes ("volumetric and thermodynamic effieciences" to quote MD) Reducing weight or parasitic losses are the last steps in an engine build to squeeze out every last bit of power.
 

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lets assume that I already have a lightened flywheel and volumetric efficiency is also good. What can you get with a lightened crank?
 

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That I dont know. Im investigating all the option for reducing parasitic weight down to a bare minimum regardless of the price.

once I know what can be done, I will work on what has the best bang for buck.

Im also hearing about rotating assemblies. If I have understood correctly, its a custom crank that comes with rods and pistons. They (the manufacturers) say that the assembly comes already fully balanced.

Is it worth my while to buy one of these rotating assemblies that come already balanced and are lighter?

Since I have to buy a second hand B16A engine, I am concerned that the internals have been abused and want to take into consideration this wear. I was thinking of replacing the rods and pistons with Eagle rods and Wiseco, respectively or just getting one of these rotating assemblies. But then the whole balancing issue hit me and now there is harmonics.

What would be the best thing todo?

Thanks
Ed
 

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Did a little research on crankshaft harmonics and turned up the following:

http://www.theoldone.com/components/fluidampr/
http://www.fluidampr.com/howitworks.htm
http://www.fluidampr.com/problem.htm

If Endyne "recommends" this dampener for any crank, then it must be good considering Endyne's reputation.
After reading the Fluidampr explanation of it dampener, I should be able to reduce the vibration accross all the RPMs (http://www.fluidampr.com/solution.htm). Eagle Rods says that their cranks are all internally balanced.

What are your thoughts on this MD? How much punishement can a B16A crankshaft take?

I have emailed Eagle Rods about the harmonics on their cranks. I`ll let you know what they say.

The engine will be put into a daily drive. For everyday usage, i`ll probably stay in the lower-mid RPMs (mainly below VTec for fuel saving and speed limit) and on weekends at high RPMs for racing. one can say that my operating RPM range is in the upper RPMs as that is where the most punishment will happen. The powerband will also be up there in the high RPMs.
 

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MichaelDelaney on Aug/20/04 said:
if the powerband is shifted very high for racing applications, the harmonics created could potentially damage the internals of a shortblock.
(MD, be nice you could quantify "very high". Gives me a number to work with, cause one persons very high could be different from someone else's very high)
 

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DaBoyNBlu: Im first looking to find out what all my options are before spending cash. once I know what the options are, then I can start to see what would give the best "bang for buck" for a given application.
 

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bang for the buck won't include an aftermarket crank, that's for sure.

there's million-dollar race teams rolling with stock cranks, and they couldn't care less about a dollar/hp ratio.


i'd be a little more wary about parts just b/c of a "good" reputation... i'm speaking in reference to the endyn comment above. endyn has lots of people that sit very strongly on both sides of the fence, as far as their reputation and actual ingenuity.

not necessarily about the harmonic balancer... i don't think it could hurt, and i'd probably get one if i were still spending money on my car... but if you get any more advice/parts from them, make sure you do the research on your own, or at least take their words with a grain of salt
 

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normally your stock redline is 8100-8500 rpm for Hondas. once you get into the 9500 rpm and above redline territory, you have shifted your powerband to start at around 6800-7000 rpm. I consider anything in that range, "high". The Mugen ECU redlines at 9300 rpm. That's about the limits of tolerance for internal stock components in my books. So if you plan to spin it past that for redline then I'd look into the effects on the harmonics. I have not exceeded 9500 rpm set redline. Maybe other who have can comment on the vibration level of the crank at these rpms.
 

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My initial idea (however naive it is) was to redline at 10 000 RPM. That was about 2-3 weeks ago. Since then, I have learnt and that it is not just the components inside but also the head that will take alot of punishment.

In particular the valve seat, i remember reading something about the valve seat taking strain at high RPMs and could result in a loss of CR if the seat was damaged (gap between valve and head). Have to read more into that.

Thinking about it as I type this message, 9000 -9500 RPM may be a better option as going past this would be a bit of overkill and extremely expensive returning less that impressive results for the investment made.

Something relating to balancing of the crankshaft. You say the stock crank if fully counterweighted (I assume your talking about all the B-series crank, both non-type r and type r). Does the balancing of the crank only relate to the crank itself or does the weight of the rods and pistons also affect the balancing?

In my mind (as it stands), if the crank is already balanced the weight of the rods and pistons shouldnt unbalance it provided that the same rods and pistons are used in all the cylinder (aftermarket or stock). Perhaps its a silly question but I would like to be on a solid footing should for myself and should anyone ask me about it. I was thinking of using lighter rods and maybe different pistons to increase the CR.
 

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you're correct--piston and rod weight do not disrupt the balance of the crankshaft.

everything's balanced independently. to further balance the bottom end, you swap parts between reciprocating assemblies such that their weights closely match, like a particular piston with a particular rod/ring package/wristpin/wirelock/etc.
 
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