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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am wonder is my set up will produce 200whp after i am done.
i am using itr pistons .25 overbore with full itr valve train with blox's stage one cams with adj. cam gears and a itr header. And s300 hondata for tuning. will i produce 200whp ?
Thanks for the help
 

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Short answer: NO

Long answer: You could achive a 200whp setup w/o forced induction but it wouldn't be very drivable. If your doing all this work to a stock LS then you're talking about adding 90hp with compression and cams basically. Even with the hondata to squeeze out every hp you deserve from that setup and every bolt on you can to get a high peak number your still going to be stuck about 20whp short.

What are your goals? If you want to produce a high dyno off NA thats cool but you should be more focused on where you want your powerband in conjunction with your transmissions gears and thier landing points. A well plotted car with everything working right that produces 170whp could theoretically be better then a car which pushed 200whp and has a horrible powerband(which you would drop out of when you shift)
 

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i believe you will need some more things. i'm averaging on a stock usdm type r to the wheels would have around 160whp more or less. Going N/A and reaching 200hp is hard, but not impossible.
 

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DvdItr on Feb/15/06 said:
i am using itr pistons .25 overbore with full itr valve train with blox's stage one cams with adj. cam gears and a itr header. And s300 hondata for tuning. will i produce 200whp ?









you don't know what he has on the induction side (IM/head) or exhaust side (header/cat/exhaust).

you don't even know the motor.

(we're talking NA here for the people who don't know what Blox "stage 1" (actually called type A) VTEC cams are)

a b18c1 with 81.25 mm itr pistons vs b18c5 with 81.25 mm itr pistons has a different CR and you don't even know if it's jdm itr pistons vs usdm itr pistons.

pistons don't dictate peak hp potential anyway.

they do rob you of peak hp potential if you don't have enough compression.

the induction side: IM/head/cams combination dictate the max cfm and hence max hp POTENTIAL.

whether you meet that peak hp potential or not after you've flowed enough air in depends on your burn efficiency and exhaust system effciency to expel the extra flow volume that you've added in.

I'm trying to find the Blox cam specs (and maybe even the ABDC intake closing spec on them to see if he has enough compression)

11.7 mm max. lift on 247 @ 1mm duration. (stock 00-01 CTR cams are 11.5 lift @ 243 duration to give you some perspective)

if dvdItr can read us the ABDC closing spec on the Blox Type A intake cam and what his motor is that would help us. What size exhaust sytem and what header are you running?


it's looking less and less likely that he can gain 40-50 whp from baseline.


if this is indeed a 1.8L b18c5 with jdm itr pistons, you're at 11.1 CR in a mild ITR-like or sk2 stage 1-likecam. With a 2.5 in. exhaust systems and decent 2.5 in. header, these pop in the neighbourhood of 188-195 whp with tuning and 290-310 injectors .

Some extra porting on the IM and head will kick it over.

Some people cut the ITR IM plenum and port the inside to increase the plenum volume and clean up the taper and S lip on the velocity stack of the runner entrance like Endyn does and then reweld the plenum back up.





on a velocity stack short ram, ported IM, 64-66mmTB and 11:1 CR, 290-310 injectors, 2.5 in header/exhaust system people can hit 200 whp with tuning :


 

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remember what you're asking the engine to do:

for a stock USDM ITR b18c5, you're asking for 40 whp or 25 lb ft tq gain at 8000 rpm to hit 200 whp. this is a a 25% gain in power...not an easy task on basically a stock block CR/exhaust.

that's going from 105 stock tq at 8000 rpm to 130 lb ft @ 8000 on a b18c5 to get 200 whp.




the CTR/00-01 ITR cams/PR3 head combination as we have seen flows enough for 200 whp as it is at about 250 cfm @ 28 in. at 0.45 in. lift (11.7 mm Blox max lift =0.46 in. lift)

what's holding it back? the IM, injector sizing for the flow, poor burn from bad mixing (mixture motion, , and exhaust system reversion.


on a stock IM and exhaust system or even 2->2.36 in. system, you're asking a lot out of that package.
 

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let's play with some numbers so you guys begin to get the feel for the numbers here.

"flow" is around 250 cfm @ 28" on a PR3 head and CTR cam max lift of 0.45 in.

so we go

peak hp = 0.256 x cfm @ 28" vacuum on flowbench x # cylinders


0.256 x 250 cfm x 4 cylinders = 256 bhp.

your advertised stock ITR makes 195 bhp.

if you presume a 15% drivetrain loss through the clutch and tranny and driveshafts,your head/cams flow enough for 218 whp.

what's robbing you of 61 bhp? why isn't the stock ITR making 200 whp? it's head/cams can flow that much.

here are some possible reasons:

exhaust system reversion, burn efficiency, crankcase ventilation and other frictional losses, intake/TB/IM sizing induction flow.

what people fail to understand is the effect of the 2.36 in. reversion choke down at the top end in terms of trapping in contaminated gases.

they also fail to appreciate how much the IM chokes down the intake flow to the head. When you look at 50mm ITB's , they drop a head's max cfm by 5-8%. That's an ITB and not even a plenum IM. So you can imagine at least a 10% max cfm drop on a head for even a good aftermarket IM alone.

injector sizing:

how many times (here's the common topic in the "Fuel & Ignition" section to prove it to you)have we shown this link to you guys in the injector common topic?


if you flow enough air for the peak goal and your injectors then poop out because you have the wrong injector sizing to control the burn, you won't hit your peak hp...you have to know the numbers guys...sorry...but that's the reality...this isn't magic vague touchy feely stuff.


look at the table and this assumes a worst burn efficiency than on an NA motor...

250 injectors top out at 175 hp.

you can't make these up as you go along... this is the reality.
 

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look at the tq curve on that dyno above.

see it take a nosedive after 7500 rpm?

you'll see that a lot on a lot of dynos if you've been paying attention to the whole dynosheet and the shape of the tq curve rather than drooling at the peak numbers.


ask yourself what makes it nosedive like that ?

if you can prevent that, your peak hp will be higher since

hp = (tq x rpm)/5252
 

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DvdItr on Feb/15/06 said:
I am wonder is my set up will produce 200whp after i am done.
i am using itr pistons .25 overbore with full itr valve train with blox's stage one cams with adj. cam gears and a itr header. And s300 hondata for tuning. will i produce 200whp ?
Thanks for the help
I'm exhausted by the time I'm halfway through one of Michael's replies! I feel more ignorant than I originally fooled myself into believing I wasn't when I woke up this morning. He definitely has a strong aptitude for his engines; if you can follow what he's explianed then I'm sure you will accomplish your goal.

Ha, and I was sure that GReddy h/e would've put me close to 200whp...
...Oh well, I have my eye on a set of cams and a fuel rail, an easy 50 ponies there; that should put me over!
 

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sorry guys but it's more complicated than a simple answer.

can he get 200 whp?? we don't even know what his engine is. b18c1? b16a? b18c? b18c5?

how is anyone going to answer that question correctly?

if I guess that it's a JDM 0.25 over itr pistons in a b18c5 then I'm guessing on a properly run honest sae corrected dyno that he won't make it.


what I wanted to get across that people always fail to understand is this notion that your IM/head/cams FIRST have to IN COMBINATIoN flow enough to meet the peak hp goal or you're just twiddling your thumbs.

A lot of people don't get that very basic idea.

The flowbench and math shows you how to figure it out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry Guy i Was not too clear that is my bad i was getting computer loading problems. Here is the low down
b18c1 Skunk manifold, itr header, itr valve train, itr piston .25 over bore, blox's stage one cams or type a , adj. cam gears, still find which injectors will suit me and hondata s300.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Usdm p73 and the cams i bought it from a friend so i have no idea of the degrees of open and close. But i just know that the cam is just a little more agresvtive then the itr cams so i been told. So this whole time i was just basing the degrees of a itr cams. Man i feel like a newbie at this after seeing all your posting but thank for all the help thought still learn new things in a new light.
 

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b18c1 gsr motor with usdm p73A0's: 10.9 CR with sk2 IM, blox type A, ?jdm itr 2.5 in. 4-1 header...? exhaust ?cat

if it's a 2.5 in. exhaust,

185-190 whp powerband 5800-7800 rpm with 290-310 injectors and tuning.

it's a good street cam.

you'll be hard pressed to make it to 200 whp though on a properly set dyno.

do you have a baseline run now before you installed the cams/pistons?

really that's what you want to see. how much of a change or gain from baseline...not whether you hit a number that isn't measured all that accurately anyway.

as you can see from Todd's (b19coupe) dynos on the dynapack vs dynojet in another thread here, the same motor with no changes can be measured and get peak numbers that are 23 whp apart.

the proof in the pudding will be your 1/4 mile trapspeed and time not a peak hp #.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yea that is my set up but i am going with some 290 inj.
But the thing is that the motor crap out on before i could dyno it. So i am in the procees of rebuilt it myself right now. But I can see you have a pretty good idea of my set up anything you recomend as parts wise? thanks
 

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i'm presently doing a similar setup that is
B18C block with an additional .25bore/ TODA 81.25mm piston 12.4-1cr.
Type R head with TODA spec B cams
ITR header
AEM V2 air induction system
i have'nt decide on which programme to run yet. may hondata
but what u guys think, its impossible to make 200whp with this setup?
 

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these "can I achieve a certain peak whp with these parts ?" threads are like:

"look into the crystal ball or read your tea leaves and Tarot cards and tell me my future whp " threads.

basically these kinds of questions bypasses the whole idea behind this website which is to dump the n00b notion of Lego building and start trying to UNDERSTAND what you are doing at a mechanical level. They're asking us to spoonfeed you where you are failing in your package.

Instead of asking will you make a certain hp, start looking at the things that dictate whether you flow enough in and out oBJECTIVELY with some numbers, whether you have adequate fueling, whether you have the right tuning tools, AND other parts relationship factors like overcamming a motor.


on page 3 of this thread I said the following:

MichaelDelaney on Feb/08/06 said:
It's interesting to see that on Chuck's HP graph the calculated max. hp on the Toda B with a stock head is about 250 bhp....


That 250 bhp translates to about 213-220 whp max. if you go by the usual 12-15% drivetrain loss on FWD's. All theoretical you say?

In reality, this is validated by the best tuned dynos.

Indeed, the tuned Toda B packages with stock heads top out at around 210-215 whp.





So the exercise is fairly accurate.

In my experience most Toda B packages cluster around 189-210 whp. The 210-215 dyno is pretty exceptional.

The tq curves are all linear though which is a testimony to the headport and the nonVTEC cam lobe specs/layout.
They kill valvefaces, valve seats, and rockers though.










The 189-210 range (that I mentioned above in the quote) depends not only on the engine package but also on which type of dyno you are using. if you look at a typical B18C (not a B18C1) they make around 155-165 peak whp stock and perhaps with i/h/c/e, they clear 175-185 peak whp depending on the header. So really those Toda B cams, with the right sized exhaust system and injectors, and with 11.8-12.5:1 CR so as to not overcam the motor, are making 15-25 whp after tuning. The exceptionally tuned packages can pop a 30-33 whp gain but this is rare and mostly in a race motor that's going to be torn down in a week after racing because it's running crazy clearances that are so tight, the parts will wear and be junk in a ridiculously short time.


This is what you do. You go to your dyno and do a BASELINE set of 3 runs and see what you have now. Then, after a proper install (no small feat) , do an interim break-in tune (because the biggest damage can happen during break in due to you running lean) and break-in your parts . Then, do the AFTER INSTALL dyno with full fuel/ignition tune. Here's what can happen:

Case 1:So if your baseline on that particular local dyno was 160 whp and you slap on these parts ( which at best USUALLY after tuning make 25 whp) , you'll have a 185 whp car.


Case 2: But if your baseline on a particular local dyno shop was 175 whp (with no parts differences from case 1 remember), then,with an average 25 whp gain, you'll hit 200 whp.


Are these 2 cases any different IN REALITY ?

NO !!!

It's the same bloody car and parts for cryin' out loud.

1 reads 185 because of a low reading dyno and the other reads 200 whp because of high reading dyno. In reality, they both made 25 whp from the same baseline.


That's what dynos are meant to show you: RELATIVE CHANGES. They're not that accurate to give ABSOLUTE numbers. only the LOW INERTIA dynos used by industry and multimillion dollar factory racing teams are absolutely accurate. Let's GET REAL here.


If you're really hard up on showing 200 whp to impress your friends who don't know the truth or reality of the situation, then find a dyno that baselines your "BEFORE" package really high and make sure the baseline is 180-185 whp. That will guarantee that your "AFTER" package reads 200 whp or up.

Or if you're unscrupulous and want to lie, tell the dyno operator to flick the correction factors off.

But if you're interested in the truth, then all you care about is the amount of change gained.

How do you confirm or validate that you have a REAL 200 whp and not an instrument measuring device read 200?

You run it at the track. Your 1/4 mile run should confirm if the absolute dyno number is in the right speed trap range. Most 200-210 whp motors crack into 98-105 mph speed trap range. Notice I didn't give an et since traction, track conditions, gearing, aero resistance , driver skill will determine the et, not just the motor's power level and powerband. A genuine 200 whp , 2500 lb car should break into the mid-high 13's on slicks.

That's how you confirm or VALIDATE whether you got a true 200 whp.


from Todd's (B19coupe's) motor thread , you smarter guys and gals SHOULD have learned something by now:

Quote: MichaelDelaney on Feb/15/06
Same Car, Same Parts, No Changes, 2 Different Dynos:


Dynapack




Dynojet




That's the same engine package (no parts changes, no extra tuning) on 2 different dynos.

on 1 dyno it reads 245, on another it reads 223.




I think Turbo magazine showed a couple of years back that the same car with no changes in parts or tuning can read different peak whp numbers by as much as 8-10 whp.



Now the slimy people who's living is to sell parts (notice I didn't say all people who sell parts...only the ones who are disreputable and unscupulous)take advantage of this fact about the dynowhen they look at people like you who don't know any better. They can inflate a part's reputation by either changing the correction factors or finding a high reading (calibrated) dyno.

The other people who "take advantage" of the dyno's weaknesses in measuring are the people who need to show off their dyno sheet and somehow need the attention to make themselves feel important which is a false sense of self esteem. They're fishing for complements and nothing more.



But you guys and gals are smarter.

You know better.

Don't get caught up in dyno sheet showing off.

If you want to prove that you have a real 200 whp to back your dynosheet, do a 1/4 mile run on slicks and show your et and that will shut up everyone including the guys & gals who know the truth.

That's what we're about here. Grassroots, down to earth, get real.
 
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