NASA/SCCA hybrid autocross rules - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 01:46 AM Thread Starter
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here is the original thread that i posted this classing format change for SCCA autocross:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/314302.aspx

here is a copy/paste version of my proposal and responses to others responses:

Here are the rules for “NASA-X”.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/n...-X_Classes.pdf
The basic idea as I understand it is; cars start out in a certain base class, and accumulate points the move them up to higher classes. This means that modded econo boxes can compete against stock sports cars (not possible in SCCA except for super cars classed in modified classes).

After reading them I realized that my friend who is technically classed in some street mod class only because he has a carbon fiber hood would be able to be competitive under the NASA rules. The NASA rules would also cut down on cars being bumped out of classes because they “replaced their telescoping antenna with a stubby one”. I know this is a non-issue locally, but regionally and nationally it makes a difference. I also believe it would cut down on cheating because revealing certain mods would only add points that lead to an eventual bump up in class rather than a quantum leap. Keeping a single mod from outclassing a car is especially important in recruiting new participants to the sport; many who have already made an expensive/time consuming mod that would be not much fun removing (turbo, etc...)

If it sounds like I want everyone to jump ship and implement NASA rules across the board you are mistaken because in the NASA rules, you can do all sorts of “free”(no points) mods that would make a daily driver not competitive in any class. Even the “points adding” mods could possibly make street legal, daily driven cars uncompetitive.

My solution would be a hybrid of the two. Mods would add points, but there would have to be some sort of separation between cars capable of passing emissions, being a practical daily driver, etc…, and cars that are dedicated racecars/trailered. Right now, the top STS cars are being trailered, while real street driven cars with non-airbag steering wheels are punted out of STS because the car originally came with an airbag.

No, I have not been in the sport that long, and have not purchased a car/cars based on SCCA rules, so my investment in the status quo is not as high as many of you on this board (but I have purchased or not purchased parts based on the current rules). I do believe however that I share the same concerns as other newcomers (or people who don’t even start because they would not be competitive).

Lastly, this thread is not meant to piss on those who have spent countless hours formulating rules for both SCCA and NASA. This thread is here to improve upon the structure already built.

-Dave







Patrick- Yes, of course there will always be certain car/combination that will be superior, but my aim is to minimize the gap between that car and the rest (at least enough to make other cars competitive on the local/regional level).

Regarding cheating, I was not so much referring to the national level as I was referring to the ignorance or “it doesn’t matter” attitude about small things (different antenna example) that should bump cars up a class in the local events.

In regards to a regions ability to modify rules for member recruitment, I see that as ineffective because the basic rules stay the same. Sure you can have a “tire class” (Houston), or ladies classes, but all that does is add an even longer list of classes to worry about and spread the competition thin. on top of that, these quasi classes have no national counterpart to which newcomers can strive to qualify for. To me at least, this is very important because even if someone will never make it to Nat’s, they still might want the hope/possibility of going in the class that they compete. It’s the same idea behind a dead end job, or a track and field event that is not represented at the State meet (high school).

In regards to your opposition to the “free mods”, I 100% agree with you. I think that is the fatal flaw with the NASA-X rules and in the end make those rules as a whole worse than the SCCA rules (in my opinion).

Point well taken regarding the trailering of vehicles (especially for Nat’s). I suppose I am prone to pie in the sky visions of all street classed cars being daily drivers, but forget that is not always practical/possible. I still am however committed to ensuring that practical daily drivers can be competitive.

I hope I’m not coming off as a know-it-all a**(because I still have a lot to learn), I’m just trying to do what I can to make the sport better for everyone. As always I appreciate your, and others comments/ideas.

Here is my proposal (which I will modify based on your input)

“Street classes”

-Standard production cars will be classed “A” through “H”. A Street = AS
-If a “B” class car gets 20 points worth of mods, it will move up the “A” class (all classes will have 20 points separating them.
-If a car is deemed too good for say “D” class, but not good enough for “C”, then the car in its stock form will be classed “D+10”(or what ever amount of points are deemed appropriate). This allows for cars to be very accurately assessed in stead of being lumped into just the class.
-mods done to the car will result in points added until the car gets 20 points and is bumped into the next class. Certain mods may be worth more points than others
-only classes “A” through “C” will be allowed to use R compound tires. Using R comps will be optional and add points. Using R comps in lesser classes automatically bump you into C class. But if you are at “D+0” (for instance), and add R comps (+5), then you become “C minus 15” (C-15). This allows you to add 15 more points before you start adding points (20) that will take you to B class. In other words, it would take 35 points before the car would be in B class
-Super Street will consist of few (if any) cars so that corvettes/911s can have the flexibility to add more than just 20 points worth of mods to their cars without going to the Modified classes
-engine internals can’t be touched, unless it can pass emissions, if so, then lots of points
-turbo/supercharged only if it can pass emissions= points
-must retain passengers seat.
-must be able to start car on a regular basis w/o jumpers. This eliminates inappropriately small/non-functional batteries from being used

-points added for lighter than OEM group size battery.
-diff. supercharger pulley, turbo size= points
-points will be added for every inch you go over the OEM wheel width
-300 tread wear and above will get no penalty, while anything 180-299 will get 3 points
-Removal of lights, or anything that would render the vehicle incapable of being driven on the street; would not be allowed. Car must be able to pass emissions and safety tests that road cars are subject to. This does not mean following the EPA’s definition of compliance, or the Cali list of smog approved parts. The goal here is to allow one to modify the car without fear of failing emissions and thus giving the advantage to dedicated/trailered only cars.
-hybrid vehicles (Nissan 240 with a SR20det swap) or (civic with integra motor) will be classed in a street class as long as they have an OBD sys. That is as new as or newer than the car that the motor is going into. The goal being of course “emissions compliance”.
- gutting the back half of the car should carry heavy points.
-gutting of the drivers/passengers part of the cabin, or the roof is illegal, and will put you into Modified class
-removing of the passengers door panel will add heavy points.
-A/C removal =heavy points
-power steering delete/conversion will add normal points so long as you properly loop the lines and add a breather.
-adding a sunroof plug only adds points if there was no similar model that had no sun roof. This facilitates backdating without cutting out the roof and welding in the non-sunroof roof.
-expensive mods like big brake kits should also carry heavy points penalties. (Then again, what isn’t expensive about modifying a car?)
-there could also be a limit as to how stiff the springs could be, or a % over stock spring rate allowance.
-comfort and convenience clause sounds about right
-ineffective body kits etc = no points added
-no race gas; only diesel, e85, reg. gas
-any brake fluid/brake pads = no points added
-steel frame race seat +1, plastic composite/alum. +2, carbon fiber +3. This eliminates the need to ballast a race seat. Seat must be cloth covered though.
-air bag removal adds points and is legal only if accompanied by a 4 or maybe 5 point harness at least.
-navigation system/radio delete = lots of points
-no cutting/grinding of the frame/body
-updating/backdating would be allowed
-mud flap removal = free mod
-side trim removal = points
-Lexan (fal-glass) of any glass except that which rolls up and down =points. Not sure if lexan is street legal. If not, then any Lexan would be illegal.

-the above are points/no points adding rules, but are not a complete list. I mainly focused on the parts of the NASA-X rules that I disagreed on, and then rewrote them above. The rest of the NASA-X points adding mods would be the same as they have listed in the link here:http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/n...-X_Classes.pdf
-the exact number of points assigned to mods are more of an example than what I think they are worth. I do not posses the technical know-how/experience to accurately judge how much a mod is worth.
-I make a big assumption that emissions testing is the same in all states. This is probably not true and would require that everyone adhere to the standards of the strictest state (let me guess…California).
-A real muffler must be used, and a set standard of max decibels must be enforced.



-need help on aero rules!!!!!
-the purpose of adding heavy points penalties is to discourage/not give competitive advantage to mods that barely qualify as desirable mods for a street driven car.
-the purpose of being so liberal in the street class is draw more ppl to the sport in much the same way drag racing has done it; “run what you brung”.
-another reason the points system is better than say STS etc. is because if say your radiator goes out, and you want to for just a little bit extra money upgrade to an aluminum one, you can go for it without having to worry, “will this kick me out of the

Modified

-A through F Modified
-R comps allowed in all modified classes

-A=open race cars highly modded. Kit cars
-B=production car shell/body, any engine, but must be mounted in approximate Original location and drive the same wheels. Engine can be internally modded, turbo/supercharged. May include kit cars.
-D=production car shell/body, original engine, but can modify/turbo/supercharge engine. Must have passengers seat
-E=production car completely stripped, carpet/lights etc. limited to bolt on performance parts/turbo/supercharger. Suspension/sway bar can be modded, but not the mounting points. Engine can be tuned as well. Must have passengers seat
-F= must have passengers seat. Modify suspension/sway bars. Can strip it or modify the engine, but not both. If engine modded, then only driver’s seat can be switched for a racing seat, nothing else can be replaced/removed.


Not sure if Modified should have traditional rules like those above, or the hybrid restrictions/points system that Street class has. (I’ve been shooting in the dark as far as the Modified rules are concerned)

Maybe some sort of “super modified” where its balls out, no rules except min. weight and max displacement.

Jr. Cart class (or whatever it’s called in SCCA)

The end; no more classes. No pax classes except for novice. Regions would be free to combine classes if attendance was low and use a pax to determine a winner. But they couldn’t have a pax in addition to the class like what is going on now.

-incorporate a “Christmas tree” start to the run (like in ProSolo)
-not sure how grandfathering should be done, but maybe there should be automatic points reduction to those who built their car and competed in “X” amount of events in the previous year.

-Dave



Zauskycop- regarding my Modified rules, I took very little time coming up with them. I also am not very familiar with the current rules. My goal was to reduce the number of classes to provide greater pools of competitors per class. From what you are telling me, the rules are off base (allowing turbos for most Modified classes). I also am curious as to whether you or anyone else believes there are too many classes in the non-street legal categories (i.e. anything other than Stock or the ST classes)? Thanks for the input.

Like I said in my last post, maybe there should be the same “points for parts” classing system for a non-street legal car as I have arranged for my “Street Class”.

-Prepared A through G=non-street legal cars, classed based on mod points accumulated.
-Modified A through C= formula cars, kit cars, classed based on mod points accumulated

- in the NASA rules, there are provisions about minimum weights for all classes(no more than 150lbs. lighter than stock with driver). I think that might be appropriate for Modified, and maybe Prepared, but not for the Street classes because of the equipment involved. If I’m not mistaken, that is about how SCCA currently does it. Thoughts/suggestions?

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 02:19 AM
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So essentailly every car has 160 points to be an "A" class car?

What you mean is, "every class can use R compund tyres, but lesser classes pay a pentaly"? and based on what you said, if youre an "H" class car, and you wanna use R compound tyres you get 114 points(95 from H to C with the +5 for tyres, then 19 to stay under "B")?

That doesnt sound very fair, just because you're in a higher class because of engine mods and whatnot that you dont get points for the R compounds.

When I was looking into the SCCA AutoX I was put into STS (I believe) because I had no backseats/ rear interior panels and a aftermarket header.

It shouldnt be class based, just point based for everyone.

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 07:25 AM
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As far as the R compound tires thing is concerned, I think it makes sense.

If the car isn't very modified then you don't need R compound tires, you can get by with your run of the mill aggressive performance tires or what have you. So running R compound tires wouldn't benefit the car at all.

However, if your car is highly modified AND you ran run of the mill aggressive performance tires, you'd be spinning your wheel and going nowhere a lot of the time. So running R compound tires is a necessity and shouldn't force you into a higher class than your car is capable of being competitive in.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 11:17 AM
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so if im running a turbo( I dont know why I would on a track),and it was emissions passable, What if I wanted to use Yokohama A048 tyres. I'd jump 2 classes?

It's not a question of need, more of what people want to use.

If the point values were given, this would make more sense.

I'm not saying I dont like the idea, cause I think the SCCA makes up some crazy ass rules. And this point system souns similar to the system in Forza Motorspors 2.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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sniperX-no, every car is assigned to a class based on how good the car is in stock form(just like in SCCA solo Stock classes). for instance, a corvette Z06 would start out in A class, while an integra would start out in G class. once you start modding the car, you accumulate points until you get enough mod points to bump you into the next class.

if you put on R comps though, you are automaticly bumped "up" into C class (assuming you would otherwise be in a lesser class, like D, E, F, G, H).

for cars already in A,B, or C class, there would just points added to their car. Even for those not originaly in A,B or C class, there will still be points added for R comps(but it will also bump you to C class no matter what).

if you strip the interior or otherwise make the car not street legal or impracticle according to the rules, you are bumped out of all the "Street" classes, and put into "Prepared".

under the current SCCA rules, you would not be in STS because part of your interior is gone. you would be in Stree mod, prepaired, or modified, and be VERY uncompetitive. in my rules, parcial stripping like taking out back seats/back carpet might be legal for the Street classes with a points penalty.(haven't decided yet).

niccantdecide- R comps help almost any car alot, but are expenside and require you buy an extra set of wheels to mount them on. if you put enough mods on your car to be in A,B, or C class, or your expensive sports car is already in A,B,C class then you can spring for R comps.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2008, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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the goal of making R comps only for A,B,C classes is to keep costs down and have more of a true street based setup for the lower classes. i am open to allowing R comps in A,B,C, and maybe D, and E classes too. these hypothetical rules are still in the brain storm stage.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-12-2008, 11:01 AM
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ok. This all makes much more sense now. Sounds good, and maybe you can start your own racing organization.

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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here is the link to the original thread:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/ShowThr...=314302#324104

Back from the Dead!
Hybrid Rules 2.0
Offcamber-X
(I spent a lot of time on this)

Obviously ya’ll can say whatever you want on this forum, but I would like it if you gave suggestions on how to improve my hybrid rule proposal instead of telling me it wouldn’t work.
My rules are a Hybrid of SCCA, and NASA rules. They are not just NASA rules with a few changes, and a different name.
I would love to propose this as a local/regional classing system, but then nationally prepped cars would be out classed. If these rules were supplemental rules in addition to the existing ones, there would REALY be too many classes. If on the other hand, the TEXAS region takes up the rules, and then we secede…
Problems: too many classes. We all can’t be winners; that’s why it’s called competition. Rules aren’t flexible enough to build what you want and be competitive at the same time.
Too many cars are uncompetitive because of a few mods they made bumped them into a class they have no business being in. This in turn takes the sport out of…the sport. They are then not likely to be as committed (read involved) as someone who is doing it for the competition and fun. I suspect a lot of them eventually drop out, or just participate once in a blue moon. Not all of us have the money/desire to buy a whole new car (in some cases brand new) to be competitive.
Another reason the points system is better than say STS etc. is because if your radiator goes out, and you want to for just a little bit extra money, upgrade to an aluminum one, you can go for it without having to worry, “will this kick me out of the class”.
Allowing as much weight reduction as possible is important because cars these days are so heavy and uncommunicative that it takes away from the experience.
If ya’ll think this rule set is too unpredictable, adjustments to classing/points “could” be make to assure only certain cars/mods were nationally competitive. The advantage could not be that big though, b/c then the other cars would never have a chance locally/regionally, and therefore be uncompetitive.
A grandfather clause could be added to give advantage for a year or so to cars like the S2000, Z06, RX-8, and other cars that people have bought specifically for autocross.

Proposed classes
Cars will fall into 1 of 6 classing systems:

1)Novice, (PAXed)
2)Street class; SS, AS, BS, CS, etc… (street legal)
3)Modified class; AM, BM, CM, etc… (Production cars that no longer have to be street legal). Therefore being modified. (the old Prepared class)
4)Formula class; FA, FB, FC, etc… (purpose built racecars, including kit cars). They follow only a formula…for the most part. (the old Modified class)
5)Cart classes (same as SCCA)
6)Formula SAE (same as SCCA)
-PAX would only be used for novice class. Ladies classes would only be a National(maybe divisional) class. Locally, there would be no X, PAX, ladies, or other classes that would spread everyone thin.
-ProSolo starts(x-mas tree lights) would be incorporated into divisional/national events.
-# 3 and 4 could have the exact same rules as SCCA’s Prepared, and modified classes, meaning they would not have any points system to worry about.

Street class overview
Street class cars are vehicles that are street legal. They posses all necessary emissions equipment, and can pass an emissions and safety test. Generally speaking, they posses no modification that would make the car very impractical to be street driven(excluding wheels and tires). Removal of certain interior pieces behind the drivers seat is permitted…maybe. Generally speaking, this class combines STS, STU, STX, SP, and SM.
Modifying your car in any way will add points that will eventually bump you up to the next class; i.e. “B street” with enough points will go to “A street”. There are however certain “free mods” that will add no points to the car.
Cars will not be allowed to move up more that a certain number of classes(1, 2, or maybe 3 classes up at the most).
Certain modifications deemed “unwanted” because of their huge expense, or impracticality for a street car, and therefore will add more than their fair share of points to the car in order to discourage their use. Hybrid cars(different engine) will also be judged unfairly to discourage their use on a national level.
The purpose of being so liberal in the street class is draw more people to the sport in much the same way drag racing has done it; “run what you brung”.
The end result would be:
-Flexibility that would allow people to build what works for them.
-Noobs to auto-x would be more competitively classed, especially if they have mods.
-Making the competition closer, while maintaining stability for national level drivers
-reducing the amount of classes to increase competition, especially at the local level.
-eliminate the need for expensive R comp tires for inexpensive cars.
-stop the need to buy a certain car in order to be competitive.

Street class rules
Standard production cars will be classed “A” through “H”. A Street = AS
-Road cars that are deemed too fast, and have a very limited production will be put in SS (super street).
If a car is deemed too good for say “D” class, but not good enough for “C”, then the car in its stock form will be classed “D+10”(or what ever amount of points are deemed appropriate, i.e. D+11, or D+17, etc…). This allows for cars to be very accurately classed instead of being lumped into just the class.
Mods done to the car will result in points added until the car gets 20 points and is bumped into the next class. For instance, If a “B” street car gets 20 points worth of mods, it will move up to “A” street. If the car starts out in stock form as a B+5 then it will take 15 points worth of mods to move up to “A” street. Certain mods may and will be worth more or less points than others.
only SS, AS, BS, and CS will be allowed to use R compound tires. Using R comps will be optional in those classes and add points. Using R comps in lesser classes automatically bumps you into C class. But if you are at “D+0” (for instance), and add R comps (+10), then you become “C minus 10” (C-10). This allows you to add 10 more points before you get to B+0, and start adding points (20) that will take you to B class. In other words, it would take 30 points before the car would be in B street.
Cars will not be allowed to move up more that a certain number of classes(1, 2, or maybe 3 classes up at the most)
Hybrid vehicles (Nissan 240 with a SR20det swap) or (civic with integra motor), etc. will be appropriately classed in a street class as long as they have an OBD sys. that is as new as or newer than the car that the motor is going into. The goal being of course, “passing emissions”.
If it makes it easier to operate, instead of 20 points, the classing could be based on just 10 or 15 point differences between classes.

Emissions Compliance
Cars must meet standards that road cars are subject to. They must be able to pass a plug-in OBD-II test(if applicable, and a snuffer test. This does not mean following the EPA’s definition of compliance, or the California list of smog approved parts. The goal here is to allow one to modify the car without fear of failing emissions and thus giving the advantage to dedicated/trailered only cars.
I make a big assumption that emissions testing is the same in all states. This is not true and would require that everyone adhere to the testing standards of the strictest state (let me guess…California).

Free Mods (mods you can do w/o adding points)
-brake linings (pads/shoes)
-brake fluid/clutch fluid
-removal of mud flaps (as long as they are not part of the splash guard)
-comfort and convenience clause (scca rules)
-Putting in a lightweight sunroof insert in a car that had an option of no sunroof. This facilitates backdating without cutting out the roof and welding in the non-sunroof roof.
-non functional body kits
-harness; installation can’t require drilling, cutting etc…
-high performance drop-in air filter
-rolling the fenders
-tires with a 300 or better tread wear rating.
-aftermarket replacement parts that are not “high performance”(i.e. AutoZone parts)
-updating/backdating would be allowed
-any lug nuts
-hood pins
-data acquisition
-aftermarket stereo
-removal of floor mats, spare tire, and tools

Points adding Mods
- lighter than OEM group size battery.
-non OEM wheels, or OEM optional wheels of the same diameter = 2 points
- points will be added for every half inch you go over the OEM wheel width
-power steering delete/conversion
-high performance shocks = 2 points, adjustable shocks(up to 2 way) = 4 points, revalved/custom valved adjustable/non-adjustable = 6 points.
-aftermarket steering wheel for non-airbag cars
-lightweight or gutted hood
-different antenna(maybe ½ point)
-rear wiper delete(1/2, or 1 point)
-use of brakes etc. from other models, i.e. NSX calipers on an integra/civic.
-OEM seat from another model car (as long as it bolts right up without welding/fabrication) +1, steel frame race seat +2, plastic composite/alum. +3, carbon fiber +4. This eliminates the need to fabricate a ballast for the race seat. Seat must be cloth covered though.
-etc…etc…etc…

Tires
-300 tread wear and above will get no points
-anything 140-299 = 2 points
-anything under 140 = 5 points
-R comps = 10 points(maybe less)

only SS, AS, BS, and CS will be allowed to use R compound tires. Using R comps will be optional in those classes and add points. Using R comps in lesser classes automatically bumps you into C class. But if you are at “D+0” (for instance), and add R comps (+10), then you become “C minus 10” (C-10). This allows you to add 10 more points before you get to B+0, and start adding points (20) that will take you to B class. In other words, it would take 30 points before the car would be in B street.
Any size tire can be run as long as it fits the wheel and doesn’t rub the fender/wheel well. Fender can not be modified other than to “roll” it. No points will be assed for the size of tire

In conclusion: the number of points I assigned to mods are more of a way to show comparative worth, than how much they really are worth absolutely. I do not posses the technical know-how/experience to accurately judge how much a mod is worth.

NASA-X rules
When designing my Hybrid rules I used the NASA-X, and SCCA rules as an inspiration. I absolutely don’t agree with the free mods section of the NASA-X rule set. They allow way too many free mods that even if you did assess points to some of them, they would be way outside of my “street class” framework. There are also some very complicated formulas for classing in there. That would be eliminated in my rules. There are also lots of other parts of NASA-X that wouldn’t work.
Here is the NASA points system listed in the link here:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/n...-X_Classes.pdf

Mods that add lots of points in order to discourage doing it
(add just enough to stop cars with lots of these mods from being nationally competitive)

-A/C removal
-navigation system/radio delete
- gutting the back half of the car. Parts that are removed must not be cut, or broken off.
-adding a sunroof plug only adds points if there was no similar model that had no sun roof.
-expensive mods like big brake kits should also carry heavy points penalties. (Then again, what isn’t expensive about modifying a car?)
-air bag removal adds points and is legal only if accompanied by a 4 or maybe 5 point harness at least.
-Lexan (fal-glass) of any glass except that which rolls up and down. Not sure if lexan is street legal. If not, then any Lexan would be illegal.
-aftermarket functional wings/splitters
-etc…etc…etc…

Illegal mods for Street Classes
-Removal of lights, or anything that would render the vehicle incapable of being driven on the street; would not be allowed. Car must be able to pass emissions and safety tests
-gutting of the drivers/passengers part of the cabin, or the roof lining is illegal, and will put you into Modified class. This includes but is not limited to removing the dash board, carpet, etc…
-there could also be a limit as to how stiff the springs could be, or a % over stock spring rate allowance. This might be impossible to know or regulate, in which case I would drop the rule.
-no race gas; only diesel, e85, or reg. gas (maybe veggie gas)
-no cutting/grinding of the frame/body, or seam welding
-A real muffler must be used, and a set standard of max decibels must be enforced.
-no deviation from the OEM toe, or caster spec is permitted. Camber change is allowed. Because alignments aren’t always perfect, there would be some window that the cars actual settings would have to fall under.
-must have a functional, cloth covered drivers, and passengers seat.
-must be able to start car on a regular basis w/o jumpers. This eliminates inappropriately small/non-functional batteries from being used
-side trim removal
-final drive change
-relocation of engine
-relocation of suspension pickup points
-seam welding
-any other mod that would be unbecoming of a street car
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 05:31 PM
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Just one thing that stuck out in your original rules proposal. Why on God's green earth would you penalize someone for having navigation/radio delete? This alters performance in no way shape or form.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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It at least theoretically does because it reduces weight, and the hardcore auto-x drivers would and do take out their radios if allowed. Weight reduction is king in auto-x, no matter where it comes from.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 09-29-2008, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offcamber on Sep/28/08
It at least theoretically does because it reduces weight, and the hardcore auto-x drivers would and do take out their radios if allowed. Weight reduction is king in auto-x, no matter where it comes from.
but radios weigh next to nothing and Navigation units if anything ADDS weight. Also, most people have aftermarket radios and a lot of the Hondas have those flimsy ass dash kits that pop out all the time. can't tell you how many times I had to put my radio back in while on course. I was actually told to remove it after I mentioned it to my SCCA regional director.

Don't get me wrong I understand with the weight reduction and I realize if you remove a crap load of things that weigh a little it adds up to a lot. but here's the other thing. If you don't have anything else removed, chances are your car is a daily driver and you still have your radio in tact so therefore just because someone has their full interior but no radio, I don't feel they should be penalized. on the other hand they should be (but not heavily penalized) if the have a fully stripped or semi-stripped interior. Penalty points should refelect the performance advantage gained. Like I wouldn't expext to get docked the same amount of points for removing a radio as I would for the passenger seat. Understand where I am coming from.
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at the local level, you shouldn't be penelized, but national drivers will take a foot for every inch you give them
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-18-2009, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
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Option classing: NASA-X IMHO should be…

…a rule set that experiments with different and new ideas that the SCCA is too slow to act on or try.

Current solo2 rules: http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...Solo_Rules.pdf
Current NASA-X rules: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/n...SA-X_Rules.pdf

Just for fun…let me know what you think, and what needs improvement.

Glossary:
?????? = I’m not sure what the value should be or whether that should be an allowance/restriction.
Rules 3.0- Option classing
- Club racing classes would be appropriately classed so as to do ok but not generally be a frontrunner or overdog.
Thesis:
- start with a good rule system(solo2) and make it better
- Some classes have “options” that allow for a noobie to fit in, but just like an option slalom, there is a right and wrong way to take it.
- all classes will have guiding mission statements that are used to adjust the rules throughout the years
- some rules should remain vague to keep competitors away from the gray area, instead of detailed where you can find loopholes (think U.S. vs. Texas constitutions)
PRIORITY #1: Rules that work for autocrossers
PRIORITY #2(subordinate to #1): Rules that work for casual autocrossers (folks who race at local events with semi-regularly with their daily driver or weekend roadster)
PRIORITY #3(subordinate to #1&2): Rule making aimed at novices with common aftermarket modifications or no modifications to be classed in such a way that their car is at least somewhat competitive. No more: “well you need special wheels and tires just to compete in ‘stock’ class”, or “the class I’m in has a bunch of stripped down racecars on slicks”. There is no way this will work out perfect because there will always be a noob who will outsmart you with his “removed front seat” or “no headliner” , but I think it does as good a job as can be possible without hurting those serious competitors for which the sport depends. In this economic down turn I believe the less classes running on R comps the better. I am fully aware though, that some people very much like running R comps even in the stock classes.

LOCAL:
- national rules effect local rules and competitors, not just the “pros”.
- Almost all “street” classes use 140 wear street tires which also ups the number per class at local events. Tire manufactures would chip in to pay for accurate testing of said tires to ensure minimal performance creep, and ensure tires have an acceptable about of water veins so they don’t end up like Hoosier A6’s with a harder compound.
- Stock through Street Modified X rules build off of each other except if you choose the “bolt-on” side of Street Touring, in which case you must have only factory OEM sway bar/bars
- local regions are encouraged to class extremely under-prepped cars in a class they feel is more appropriate
- You can only enter Novice class 3 times.
- Stock classes that had little difference in time could be combined locally to increase competition. Street touring, street prepared, etc…would be combined if possible to just
ST, SP. In other words instead of having SMA, SMR, and SMF, you would just have SM and that would enable changes to be made to the national rules to equalize local competition with less sandbagging. Number of local classes would be reduced and competition increased.

Allowances/Rules for every class:
- comfort and convenience allowance. You know, things like driver controlled machine guns for inconveniently placed cones
- appearance kits like euro/JDM/aftermarket tail/head lights and “chrome oil caps” are allowed so long as there is no significant weight difference and is a direct bolt-on.
- Aftermarket antennas are allowed provided they are functional(if required for the class)
- JDM or EDM/UKDM “front end conversions” that offer no noticeable performance advantages are allowed. Weight may be mitigated with ballast bolted/welded to the front bumper support.
- low hanging fog lights may be covered and protected to prevent damage
- modifications that with no exceptions has no effect or a negative effect on autocross performance(this may change depending on the class category)???????

Stock class: (street tires, OEM wheels of the same chassis code, reasonable shocks)
Cars are street legal and have only modifications that you would find in the general public (aftermarket radios, streetable tires that were not OEM, fluids, brake pads, etc…)

OPTIoN; cars that run R comps (other than SS and AS) will be bumped up 3 classes (this will only work if the classes are “speed based”, not “HP/drive-train layout” based)

- 140 tread wear street tires(only SS, AS, and FS may run R comps)
-exhaust must exit in stock location
- traction control/ABS may be disabled but not removed
- any “drop in” replacement filter
- up to single adjustable “non-external reservoir” shocks below a certain MSRP(or not??). - front and rear way bars and necessary bracing to prevent tear-out would be allowed.(this should help mitigate the fun lost from R comps)
- OEM wheels from the same chassis code that fit without modification oNLY (no aftermarket wheels).
- “trim level” Update/backdate is allowed as long as there is no difference other than interior/exterior colors. Sunroof and fog light plugs can be used to achieve this
- height and camber/toe/caster restrictions (just as easy as seat weight verification)??????

- SS is only for high dollar super cars($100,000 MSRP or above). Any US production car is guaranteed a spot here. one-off custom cars or “kit cars” that are street legal and capable of being registered in their respective state are eligible here or in an appropriate modified class????????
SS, AS, BS, CS, DS, etc…
- Classing COULD be based on overall performance (SCCA) with an eye on keeping popular cars competitive, or by type of car: all low hp mid engined cars here, all AWD cars there, etc…that would eliminate course dependency, but might warrant allowing some cars to run X inch wider than stock aftermarket wheels with to even out (to some degree) the competition i.e. Elise and MR2 turbo.

Street Touring (full interior, street tires)
A purely autocross focused class that favors one choosing the “handling” option as apposed to the “bolt-on” option. Cars are street legal. The premise is street legality, and value for dollar spent on prep.

OPTIoN; where you can either do:
- drive pulleys/header/cat/exhaust
- adjustable cam gears if not equipped with variable valve timing (see SP for full rule)
-small “tuner” wing
- tune (can’t touch boost pressure. Fuel and ignition can be modified w/ stock ECU in place)
OR
- suspension/sway bars, wheels of bigger dimensions
- shocks can’t have external reservoirs or be more that 2 way adjustable
- no non OEM wings/splitters
- Can swap in any factory LSD or “LSD Diff. unit” from the same manufacture providedit bolts up without modification, and the gear ratio remains the same???????
But NOT both.

Joe Noobie with his header and tune would only be going up against “pros” with coilovers/sway bars and camber kits as apposed to “pros” with an 89’ civic with suspension AND engine mods. Plus one could make a car much faster and be competitive with just suspension mods as apposed to also having to drop lots of money for 15hp to be competitive.
Allowances/restrictions that everyone has no matter what option you choose:

Allowances available for both options:
- 140 tires only
- intake
- rolled fenders, but no flared/cut fenders, etc., wheels must tuck under fenders when compressed.
- aftermarket drivers seat oNLY, at least 25lbs. (harness weight can be included if applicable)
- only aftermarket bushings for engine/tranny and steering rack
- can’t delete A/C unless you have a non a/c trim package
- coups are forbidden to have front passenger(shotgun) race seats because it renders the back seat useless.
- any shifter, bushings, etc…
- Aftermarket antennas are allowed provided they are functional.
- OEM steering wheel(airbag or not) and passenger bag as well
- abs disabled but not removed
- height and camber/toe/caster restrictions (just as easy as seat weight verification)??????

Weight based on “off the assembly line”:
Less than 2000 lbs = 6.5” wheels
2000 to 2499 = 7”
2500 to 2999 = 7.5”
3000 to 3499 = 8”
3500 and up = 8.5”

STA=awd, STR=rwd, STF=fwd,
STF; turbo and rotary cars get a multiplier???, 3.1 liters or less
STR; turbo and rotary cars get a multiplier???, 3.1 liters or less
STA; turbo and rotary cars get a multiplier???, 3.1 liters or less
STX: overdogs, and anything else excluding SS classed cars
wheel width penalties would be assessed for 2 seater cars?????
STU: any non SS car with unlimited wheel size

Or…
STA, STB, STC, ST…wait…????

Street Prepared (full interior, street tires)
-This class is focused on allowing common bolt-ons and suspension/wheel modifications to the cars stock configuration in order to “prepare” it competitively without changing the basic components of the car. Engine should not have to be torn down and rebuilt to be more or less competitive. The Basically like SCCA’s ST classes but with some current SP rules thrown in to add speed without that much more expense. Instead of imagining a scenario where the EPA teams up with the IRS to audit your cars emissions compliance, the rules are based on what you can get away with during a local inspection (cats present(at least one cat per exhaust tube), sniffer test, OBDII coming up clean)

- 140 tires only
-intake/header/cat/exhaust/coilovers/camber adjustment
- can use any OEM brake calipers as long as it from the same company and is a direct bolt-on and the diameter is bigger. (300zx brakes on a 240sx, or NSX brakes on a civic/integra, etc…). I’m not sure what else should be allowed in order to facilitate these conversions in a safe and useful manor without opening Pandora’s box.
- braided brake lines allowed
- Drum brakes may be replaced with disc brakes. Disc brake rotors
for such a conversion must be equal to or greater in diameter
than the inside diameter of the standard brake drum.
- pulleys allowed
- fog lights may be removed and a plug cover the hole
- whatever steering wheel you want
- passenger airbag can be removed but hole must be covered
- OEM type or Braile/odyssey battery only (must weigh at least 10 lbs.). No lawnmower or motorcycle batteries. Must be mounted outside of passenger compartment/trunk unless it was there from the factory
- no wings/splitters
- hoods made of any material
- rolled fenders, but no flared/cut fenders, etc.,
-any wheels; but must tuck under fenders when compressed.
- abs disabled but not removed
- can’t touch boost pressure. Standard state OBDII test must come up clean. Fuel and ignition can be modified w/ stock ECU in place.
- can’t touch the engine/tranny internals except for cam drive pulleys and LSD’s
- any LSD
- Camshafts and related parts must remain standard except that
alternate cam drive pulleys or gears may be used to adjust cam
timing if no variable cam and/or valve timing system exists as
standard. Type of cam drive (chain, belt, gear) must remain as
standard. Alternate parts of the same general type (e.g. roller
chain in place of “silent” chain) may be substituted. Mating parts
(block, heads, covers, retainers, etc.) may not be altered. Vehicles
equipped with a variable cam and/or valve timing system
as standard may use alternate computer calibration to adjust
cam and/or valve timing but may not change or substitute cam
drive components (hardware).
- power steering my be removed proved the lines are looped
- height and camber/toe/caster restrictions (just as easy as seat weight verification)??????

ASP, BSP, CSP, etc…

OR…
ASP=awd, RSP=rwd, FSP=fwd, SPX=overdogs, wheel width penalties would be assessed for 2 seater cars?????

OR just get rid of street prepared altogether???

Street Modified (full interior, R comps)
Since I think SCCA’s SM/SSM went way past its original goal I’m proposing:
A class for “super street” cars that look like they are street legal but may not meet local emissions or noise standards. Cars are highly modified machines, but rely on their respective manufactures “parts bin” for the basic building blocks of their build, while taking advantage of relatively inexpensive aftermarket parts. Unmachined/polished engine swaps with cams, valve springs, etc..., and forced induction are allowed along with suspension/wheel/bolt-on/race focused but streetable ergonomics(seat, steering wheel)/and streetable weight reduction.

- R comps
-engine swap OR add/modify forced induction, but NOT both. Cars with factory forced induction can only replace their engine if it will not be forced inducted as an end result?????? only SMF(front wheel drive) may do both engine swap and forced induction???
- Changing the basic suspension geometry and engine/tranny anchors is prohibited except for small modifications to fit the engine/tranny in the car.
-Mix matching basic compatible parts(head/block/tranny) of the same make regardless of national origin (Lexus/Toyota/Scion, in US, Japan, Europe, etc… for example) in addition to supporting parts (valves, springs, forged pistons, etc... from any aftermarket company)
- the engine must have the same number of cylinders or rotors as before.
-No more than 500cc of additional displacement above the OEM motor(the additional displacement must be the result of the head,block, or engine swap, not a bore or stroke???). In other words, a K24 in an RSX is ok, but a bored out RSX K20 into a 2.2 liter engine is not???? Factory approved overbore is still allowed.
- no dog box trannys or motorcycle style shifters
-no major cutting to get the engine/tranny in there.
- turbos, superchargers open
- any tranny that bolts up without modification to the engine, and is of the same make.
- no porting/polishing????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????
???????????????????????????????????
- any clutch and flywheel
- rolled fenders, but no flared fenders, etc., wheels must tuck under fenders when compressed. Flared fenders only allowed in SMF
- can remove A/C, but not heater
- can use any OEM brake/rotor setup as long as it from the same company and is a direct bolt-on. (300zx brakes on a 240sx, or NSX brakes on a civic/integra)
-proportioning valves, brake boosters, etc… are open
- any LSD
- no fuel cells
- OEM functional headlights, but glass lenses may be substituted to plastic lenses provided they were still functional (no tortured interpretations). Pop-ups must remain pop-ups
- no removal of rear seats
- can remove, radio, airbags, cruise control
- any ignition sys., ecu, wiring harness
- gauge cluster open to modification, as well as a/c and radio cover plates for instrumentation
- no wings or splitters
- rear wipers may be removed and plugged
- Sunroof and fog light plugs may be used in place of said devices (sunroof plug can’t leak)
- hood and trunk lid/hatch of any material
- OEM type or Braile/odyssey battery only(must weigh at least 10 lbs.). No lawnmower or motorcycle batteries. Must be mounted outside of passenger compartment/trunk unless it was there from the factory
- NO height or camber/toe/caster restrictions
- power steering my be removed proved the lines are looped, or replaced with a manual rack
- aluminum drive shaft allowed?????????
-bumper gutting not allowed???

OPTIoN; stock class allowances with the following additions:
- R comps
- any drivers and front passengers seat and seat belts
- interior removal (except for dash board and sound deadening???)
- no roll cage required
- exhaust removal or substitution
- radio removal
- rear wiper delete
- removal of all air bags (must retain stock steering wheel)
-A/C and heater removal
- power steering my be removed proved the lines are looped
- bumper supports may be removed
This option is designed to facilitate a cheap fast car that can transition to prepared or modified when money permits, but still allows one to revert back to stock if need be. Ballast might be needed to ensure it does not become the option of choice.

SMA=awd, SMR=rwd, SMF=fwd, wheel width penalties would be assessed for 2 seater cars?????

Street Modified X
Car looks like a street car but will most likely not pass emissions and safety inspections. As long as the car looks like it could be driven on the street, its ok.

- Full interior, lights etc…
- R comps
- any engine of the same make/forced induction/engine work/etc…
-any tranny
- any brakes/braking system
-port and polish allowed
- no major cutting to get engine/tranny in
- wings/splitters allowed
- stock pick up points for the most part
- carbon fiber or aluminum drive shaft allowed
- gutted bumper supports
- aftermarket side mirrors
- flared fenders of appropriate size must be used if necessary to cover a wheel that sticks out. Must go up inside fender/extender when compressed.
- Any Battery, anywhere. Must be vented if inside passenger compartment/trunk

OPTIoN; ST class allowances with the following additions:
- R comps
- any drivers and front passengers seat and seat belts
- interior removal (except for dash board and sound deadening???)
- no roll cage required
- exhaust removal or substitution
-radio removal
- rear wiper delete
-A/C and heater removal
- removal of all air bags (must retain stock steering wheel)
- power steering my be removed proved the lines are looped
- bumper supports may be removed
This option is designed to facilitate a cheap fast car that can transition to prepared or modified when money permits, but still allows one to revert back to stock if need be. Ballast might be needed to ensure it does not become the option of choice.

Prepared (R-comps, no interior, production based cars)
Cars are stripped and fully prepared for autocross competition (including R comps), but retain all their original “basic” drive-train components. The frame/body or unibody has not been substantially altered. These vehicles are not street legal for the most part.
- same rules as SCCA’s prepared classes
- flared fenders or fender extenders of appropriate size must be used if necessary to cover a wheel that sticks out.

Modified (R-comps, no interior, production based cars)
Vehicles that are gutted, retain their body/frame or unibody, an have the original drive train configuration.

- factory drivetrain layout
- Any make model engine you want.
- turbo/superchargers
- wings allowed
- weight to Cubic Centimeters ratio
- motorcycle engines allowed
- other rules???????

Formula (not production based, and R-comps)
For purpose built race cars, or production vehicles that have nothing more than the original floorboard, etc…(think NASCAR Ford Taurus)

Formula Different = vehicle is not powered by an internal combustion engine
F125,Fjr., FSEA, FA , FB, FD.


Reference threads:
ST ecu’s, emissions legal:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/227373.aspx
What’s wrong with street prepared: http://sccaforums.com/forums/3/275713/ShowThread.aspx

Quotes:

WHAT’S WRoNG WITH STREET PREPARED:

[quote user="modernbeat"][quote user="ICTSolo2"]
[quote user="Steve Hoelscher"]I then watched the people that concieved ST make the same assumptions and mistakes that were made with SP. They dismissed the advise and council of those with the knowledge and experience to guide them around those mistakes. And so it is again. [/quote]
Steve - I'm curious to know why you refer to mistakes in regards to ST? Isn't it pretty healthy, even still in it's infancy?
[/quote]
As far as I'm concerned, the biggest mistake in ST was opening the pandora's box of emissions. It should have been a suspension allowance only class.
[/quote]

[quote user="talon95"][quote user="Steve Hoelscher"]
Street Tires. Yeah, right. So you now have to have "the tire of the moment" to win STS. So you buy the trick Bridgestones, shave them to 2/32s and mount those on your ultra light "race wheels" and swap them at the event. No longer do they compete on "real street tires".So tell me how this is different from what we have in Stock or SP where "R" tires are not banned?
[/quote]
Although I understand and agree with most of what you're saying, I'm not sure it's 100% correct. one thing to keep in mind is "perception" by the newbie is probably more important than reality. A newbie will likely see him/herself more competitive when running against real treaded street tires (even if they are relatively extreme street tires) than full slick R compounds that can't even be driven on the street. Of course that's assuming the tire companies don't eventually circumvent the 140 treadwear rule like has happened with the DOT rule in stock/SP, which they might.
Dave G.
[/quote]


[quote user="Steve Hoelscher"]
[quote user="talon95"]Although I understand and agree with most of what you're saying, I'm not sure it's 100% correct.
[/quote]
Well, if somebody agreed with me 100% I might be worried
What about the average kid who shows up for his 1st/2nd/3rd event in his Civic, with a cold air intake, 17" wheels, cheap 30 profile street tires and fart can. He looks over at Andy Hollis, unloading his fully nationals prepped STS car, then swapping the "street tires" for his trick Bridgestone "race tires" and spanking the local FSP heros by a full second.
You are right; perception is reality. His perception is; he has to have dedicated "race" tires to compete in STS. He isn't wrong. He might be closer on time to Andy Hollis's STS Civic than Jinx Jordan's FSP Civic but I think the subtleties of you point will be lost on him.
If STS had remained a regional class it would still fullfill this role in providing a place for this kid to run, against similarly prepared cars and driver's of similar ability. He would be much happier. As he progressed and wanted to move up the competition ladder he could then be main streamed into one of the existing National catagories: Stock, Street Prepared, Prepared, etc....The elevation of STS to National status attracted national caliber drivers, car builders and tire manufacturers looking for a marketing vehicle. That maturing process moved STS away from its original purpose and down the path beaten by Street Prepared. Eventually, STS will become fully mature and a new generation of newbies will have the same complaint about STS that they do about SP.So when you see the first post about how we need to put the "street back in street touring", I get to say 'I told you so'.
And before anybody gets all worked up about me wanting to take away STS's national status, that's not what I said. I simply made an observation and a conclusion. I didn't advocate anything.
[/quote]

I have literally been in that situation of getting my butt handed to me by Andy Hollis (though I think he was in the pro PAX class). I didn’t care though, because I wasn’t concerned with beating him. I was going after locals who prepared their less than ideal platforms more or less the limits of the rules. Like I said up top, national rules effect local rules and competitors, not just the “pros”.
-David

ST ECU’S, EMISSIoNS LEGAL THREAD:

[quote user="miataboi"]
From an STS standpoint at least...
Basically... from an emissions perspective... sniffer tests are not realistically going to happen... To me, the present issues could be addressed by leaving the O2 sensors stock and functional (this eliminates gutted cats, etc.)
Stock cats in stock locations saves custom development work for perfected, long-tube headers... altho replacement cats are sometimes cheaper (an allowance of stock location + / - 1" would likely solve this tho.)
Let everyone modify fuel and ignition on the stock ECU by any means they see fit. (this allows for people to extract everything possible from the limited STS mods... and do so at the cheapest possible way for their application - as anyone would do for a commonly driven street car)
This will lead to clean cars (generally) and be cost-effective... while being rather enforceable - esp as compared to today.
Seems fair and addresses a lot of the STS class concerns.
[/quote]
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-16-2017, 12:49 AM
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While looking for an electric car, you can use guidance. Electric Car Buyers Guide aims to help in determining the best course of action in doing just that. Without a doubt it’s a matter a choice, but Electric cars are a better alternate to their natural resource consuming counterparts, relating to the depleting natural resources.
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