The Great LMA Debate - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra
 
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post #1 of 4 (permalink) Old 06-24-2011, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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The Great LMA Debate

The Problem:
After contacting Endyn only to find out that they only now offer their LMAs with complete head packages, I've been trying to find a solution that's somewhere between buying the more expensive 14820-PCB-305 ($22.54) and using the 14820-PCB-003 ($7.85) units with washers that may or may not hold their shape. Who wants to spend $15 dollars extra per LMA, when the 14820-PCB-003 is almost the same damn thing with a little bit of metal on the bottom? So, we’ll just use some washers, but which ones? I read through everything I could find without being satisfied with any of the answers I found.






First off, I’m not buying the 14820-PCB-305, just not doing it out of principle. The 14820-PCB-003 has 97% of what I need anyway. So, it’s on to find the right shims now to get the correct height. There are two major problems I see with using washers to space up the LMAs. The first is that the hammering action of the valvetrain eventually deforms the washers resulting in less installed height than intended. The other is the actual selection of the right size spacer both in diameter and thickness.






(Correct shim size for H22 LMA in B series engine??? - Honda-Tech)

One of the things I noticed in the great LMA debate is that some say a .040" washer is needed while others swear that .085"-.090" is the way to go. I believe I may have discovered why. Unfortunately, I was not able to find picture of a B series head, but the photo below of the H22 head cutaway shows the LMA pocket and you can see what I'm talking about.






(vtec rocker to retainer clearence. - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums)

Notice the taper in the bottom of the LMA pocket, and the corresponding taper on the bottom of the 14820-PCB-305 unit. I believe that those who claim that a .040 washer provides the necessary clearance are installing washers that rest sungly, or more so, in the pocket from side to side. The result is that the washer spans the gap across the top edges of the taper. The LMA is installed at the correct height initially, but as the engine runs you can guess what would happen. The washer gets hammered down into the hole, spanning the gap contributes to the stress placed on the washer, and eventually it deforms to the point that it is resting on the true floor of the LMA pocket. Now, it has already been said that hardened washers are the best choice for this application, as the spring pressure won’t wear a ring down into the seat as can be seen in several threads where non-hardened washers were used. My realization is that even if you used a hardened washer that was so hard that it didn’t bend at all. Installing a washer that is that snug in the hole side to side has the potential to cut down into the tapered aluminum ridge and change the LMA height anyway. I believe that whatever type of spacer is used, it should be installed so that the entire diameter is within the bottom ledge of the taper on the floor of the LMA pocket.







(Newer style LMA's. To shim or not? - Honda-Tech)

I’m sure there are hardened washers are out there right now that people are using probably work just fine for the application, but how do you know they are the ones you are getting? I’ve seen a few old threads where people are selling ones that they claim work and they might, but they’re not selling them anymore, which leaves me to find them on my own. Take a micrometer to the hardware store next time you go, and check out the hardware, I did. You might be surprised at how different the same item is within the same bin, let alone between stores. To save everyone the time and headaches of going to every hardware store in the county, I figured there has to be another way; one that’s convenient to find, standardized, and affordable. Considering that actual valvetrain parts are already designed with these requirements in mind, I started looking there.





After looking around a little bit, it seemed that some correctly sized valve lash shims (that already come made out of hardened steel) should be exactly what everyone needs to solve the problem affordably, while providing peace of mind that you have the right part for the job without a whole bunch of running around and measuring stuff. The problem is finding them in the right size for the application, and finding them cheaply.

According to “Lowkey” the measurements of a B16 LMA are as follows:
free length= 41.77mm (1.644")
Diameter = 17.98mm (.708")

So, the diameter of the LMA at the widest point is 17.98mm
(lost motion assy's - D-series.org)

But, according to “intenseneal” his custom spacers measure, made by his father, measure .423” (10.7442mm) in diameter, with an acceptable range of .420 (10.668mm)-.425 (10.795mm). This means that there is an approximate 7.185mm difference in the overall width of the pocket and the width of the LMA pocket floor inside the tapered edges.





(B series LMA - AZHT.net)





Now, the 14820-PCB-003 LMAs measure in at a height of 1.563”





The 14820-PCB-305 measure 1.653”


(*NEW* B-Series LMA Info - Page 2 - Honda-Tech)

That’s a height difference of .09” (2.286mm). I’ve read elsewhere people calculating this at .085” (2.159mm). So, somewhere in this range should be the height we’re looking for, as long as the shim is on the true floor of the LMA pocket and not resting up on the tapered edges. So, the measurement of the shim in question should be between .085-.09” (2.159-2.286mm) in height and .420-.425” (10.668-10.795mm) in diameter according to lowkey and Intenseneal’s measurements.


The solution???:
I found an Australian company that had shims that would work, but the cost of shipping was almost as much as the shims themselves. Plus it didn’t solve the problem. The solution needs to be affordable, standardized, and readily available. After a little bit of looking I was able to locate a Toyota 2UZFE shim that I believe may be the perfect size.

The shims Toyota part numbers (13753‑22110; 13753‑22120; 13753‑22130; 13753‑22140; 13753‑22150; and 13753‑22160) have a diameter of 10.8mm and a thickness of 2.18mm; 2.20mm 2.22mm, 2.4mm, 2.26mm, and 2.28, respectively. These look to be perfect for the application coming in at about $6.28ea online. And, the range should allow you to get the exact height you want. My hope is that the extra .005mm that the shim extends beyond “intenseneal’s” limit on diameter of 10.795mm will hopefully not make a difference in the shim’s fit at the bottom of the LMA pocket.


Who works at Toyota and wants to test first?
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post #2 of 4 (permalink) Old 12-07-2011, 10:19 AM
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Did you ever find out more on these toyota shims? I'm in the process of adding shims to my 14820-PCB-003 for my gsr
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post #3 of 4 (permalink) Old 12-07-2011, 02:46 PM
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what is a LMA?

I hate new people, just a FYI

Saying gun kill people is like saying the keyboard misspelled the work

I don't care what you do at home, keep it to yourself.
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post #4 of 4 (permalink) Old 12-07-2011, 03:39 PM
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