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Blue_DC4
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AL Nov/01/07 1998 LS User ID: 82965
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11/17/2009 |
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Im sorry but how do I do a leakdown test?
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94 LS - SOLD
98 LS - Daily Driven
00 GSR - My Pride & Joy
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gospeedracer182
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Loma Linda, CA May/25/02 1998 GSR User ID: 2347 Name: Keith
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11/19/2009 |
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A leak-down test is a way of determining where you are losing compression in a cylinder. You basically put 100psi in the spark plug hole at TDC and if the cylinder is leaking either out of the intake valves, exhaust valves, or compression rings, you will loose a certain percentage of that air out of the bad sealing part. How much air you loose versus where you loose it can tell you a lot about the internal condition of the engine without taking it apart.
You can still have great compression and burn oil...I don't know why I keep having to say this. The compression ring on the piston is the top ring. Below that are oil control rings. Compression rings are fantastic at sealing air pressure but not particularly great at scraping oil down the cylinder walls. And vice-versa, oil control rings are good at pulling oil back into the crankcase from the cylinder walls...not so good at holding ignition blast back. My point is simply that compression and leak-down tests only exist at diagnosing cylinder sealing, not where oil is leaking from.
The excessive smoke at start up tells me the valve seals are probably not okay, and I base this strictly on the law of gravity. Seeing as how really the only two places oil can get into the combustion area to burn is either down the valves or back up through the rings, if the car is sitting, oil isn't going to come back up the cylinders into your combustion chamber. It is going to drip down the valve stems from the residual oil in the head.
An engine that is burning as much oil as you've described however unfortunately sounds like a rebuild is in order. You are looking at disassembly, new pistons and rings, hone or bore, and a valve job w/ new valve seals. Sorry.
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Blue_DC4
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AL Nov/01/07 1998 LS User ID: 82965
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11/17/2009 |
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^Thanks for all the help man. Im a little bummed... all I have been getting is bad news. I cant decide if it would be worth rebuilding or if I should just sell it. Im kicking myself in the ass for not noticing this when I bought the car.
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robDC420
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tallahassee, FL Aug/17/09 1999 LS User ID: 102652 Name: rob
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11/14/2009 |
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i just rebuilt my 99 ls engine, all new rods, rings, pistons, even rod and main bearings, it took a couple months( my first rebuild) but because you have a dd already i would rebuild. i did mine for just under 1000 bucks(including machine work), most of the parts i found on ebay,long story short it all worked out fine(posting build details and pics later).and my engine is very strong and responsive now. but it sounds like you only need to rebuild the head any way, you should do some research here and on other sites. it may be well worth the venture.
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94GSRteggy
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Lawrence, KS Feb/08/06 1996 GSR User ID: 64428 Name: Travis
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11/19/2009 |
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Keith is absolutely right. To me it absolutely sounds like the fairly common case of bad valve seals. Fortunately for you they are extremely cheap in comparison to a complete bottom end rebuild. You can certainly blow great compression numbers (which yours did) and still have bad oil rings. The top TWO are for actually containing the pressures the combustion chambers produce, the third ring (3 pieces actually) are your oil rings.
I would be completely certain you are not losing oil anywhere whatsoever. From there, a leak down can't hurt, but it won't necessarily pinpoint your oil burning problem.
My first step would be snagging a fitting/hose to pressurize the cylinder, and replacing the valve seals. I believe they're the "mushroom" style valve seals on our B-series. Pressurize the cylinder, remove the keepers/retainers/springs, and replace the seals with the appropriate valve stem seal tool.
If the oil consumption continues, it definitely leads to oil rings. If that's the case...well unfortunatly you're gonna have to tear into the bottom end. Either way I'd perform the rebuild myself instead of buying a motor from HMotors or something of the like. There's plenty of information on this site to guide you on your first motor rebuild. Let us know what you think.
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Mirrorimg
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VA Jan/23/09 1994 LS User ID: 97295 Name: Jason
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11/12/2009 |
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Honestly, I rebuilt my motor recently and it was much more expensive than I though initially. I would suggest doing the valve seals first, and seeing if that reduces the burning issue before you decide to get into the block. You maybe able to scrape by doing the bare minimum (reusing a lot of parts)for $1000, but that is a stretch. My machine work alone cost me 900 for the head and block. Then take into consideration replacing all of the items that ought to be replaced when doing a rebuild:Oil pump, bearings, timing belt,tensioner,water pump, headgasket, all gaskets, head bolts, and so on.
Doing the valve seals first will be a good start if you really are not looking to drop some serious money into the engine, or you can look into a swap for an engine with fewer miles.
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Changes To This Post: » Added Additional Post Text by Mirrorimg at 11/9/2009 1:45:30 AM |
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Blue_DC4
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AL Nov/01/07 1998 LS User ID: 82965
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Last Here
11/17/2009 |
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Again, thanks for all the help. I think I will replace the valve seals first. Depending on how this goes, I will make a decision on whether to rebuild or not from there. I would love to replace the springs, retainers, and cams with better parts while Im already in the head but at this point I dont know if I would be wasting my money or not. I will post results.
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gospeedracer182
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Loma Linda, CA May/25/02 1998 GSR User ID: 2347 Name: Keith
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11/19/2009 |
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Doing the labor yourself, you can remove the head and have a valve job done for relatively little money. I pulled my head once and had the head inspected with new valve seals replaced, and a couple of valves replaced and the seats and valves lapped (resurfacing synonym but for valves), and a slight mill for like 300 bucks. So long as you just take the head down to the machine shop.
It's a gamble, but I think the risk is worth it. The chance of you getting a fix with this procedure is fairly high with a small investment. For me, the labor part is pretty minor, but that depends on high mechanically inclined you are. Experience helps too. If I were in your situation, I'd probably try to pull this off first. There's no guarantee it will work though, which is why it's kind of a tough call.
If you want to play it a little safer, you can switch to a heavier oil like a 10W-40 (it's all that I run). Double check your not losing any oil down the spark plug hole gaskets. Then, I would remove the exhaust manifold and visually inspect the valves while rotating the engine so you can see the stems and the back side of the valve heads. Typically, an oil leak down the back side of a valve will create kind of an ashy, gooey build-up on the non-combustion side of the valves. This is because while the engine is running, the oil will leak down, and then because of the extreme heat of the exhaust valves, the oil will kind of coke up on there.
I really don't see the oil control rings giving you this much of a wear problem with only the mileage you have stated. It may sound high, but it took me almost 180K on my B18C to start seeing a significant amount of oil burn-off from worn rings.
Another thing I would recommend doing is double checking the fact that you are actually losing that amount of oil. Perhaps there was a grade your car was on when you checked, or maybe the time the engine was sitting was different. I know it goes against the majority wisdom around here to sort of roll the dice when it comes to this, but at the very least you'll learn a lot about your car and not spend a shit load while your at it, and that is just worst case scenario. Best case, and you still gain the experience AND you fix your problem. It's a lottery ticket I'd buy. Not the path of most wisdom, but it is something that I've learned throughout the years working on cars my whole life...in a sense we are all backyard tuners, and every once in a while it pays off to make a good guess and go with it.
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robDC420
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tallahassee, FL Aug/17/09 1999 LS User ID: 102652 Name: rob
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Last Here
11/14/2009 |
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should you find yourself in the position where you would have to rebuild the whole engine( like me when i broke a rod), you may be able to get a rebuild kit( if there is still a listing) on ebay from mizumo auto including: pistons(standard or oversize), rings( mine were NPR), main and rod bearings( mine were king but you have a choice of acl or something), a complete gasket set rear main and all(and the valve seals), timing belt w/ new tensioner, oil pump and water pump all new for 350 + shipping. my machinist couldn't even find me that part list for under 400. so im pretty sure it was a great deal. and like i said before i used all of it in my car and it wis all good quality.
so if you could just find a good machinist with reasonable pricing. i got my head and block done with boring the cylinders and a 3 angle valve job for 500, plus he miced out every thing + the crank, and aquired my new rods
if you take the time to find good prices you can have a new engine for around a thousand bucks( if you do the labor).i did it with this site and my 15$ manual from the parts store lol
but i hope you only have to drop a set of valve seals in and call it a day
good luck
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