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Jacksont001
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Snozzberry, VA Feb/22/02 1991 LS User ID: 244
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9/9/2010 |
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Hey Teggers.
Remember all the threads we have had in the past on which water or oil pump to get when yours finally needs replacement? Well I sure do, and it always made for some interesting discussion.
Well, I am happy to shed some more light on the topic and finally put the myths and misconceptions to rest.
Hopefully I will save you some money in the long run as well.
Comparison of b18a water pump to 94+GSR and 98 Type-R
EVERYONE should know that if you are hybridizing your engine, and you run a VTEC water pump you need a VTEC timing belt. Why? Two reasons, and yes... size DOES matter.
Reason #1- the VTEC pump gear is larger in diameter than the NON-VTEC counterpart. The VTEC pump has 22 teeth and is 65mm in diameter, while the NON-VTEC pump has 19 teeth and is a mere 56mm in diameter. I will explain WHY this is done in a minute, but the point I am trying to make is the belt needs to be at least 3/8 inches longer just to compensate.
Reason #2- the Cams sit higher in the Head on a VTEC engine, so the belt has to be another 3/4 inch longer for this.
Question- Why would Honda make two different water pumps for the b-series engine? is the VTEC one just that much better?
Discussion- you can't really say one is better than the other since they were designed for different goals. I can honestly say the NON-VTEC pump is more efficient than the VTEC pump for several reasons. It moves over 30% more water per engine rotation!
Reason #1- greater surface area on the impellers. Both pumps have 7 blades or "Impellers" pushing the water through the pump. the non VTEC surface area is approximately 0.291 inch square while the VTEC pump is 0.258 inch square. This makes the NON-VTEC pump move 13% (113%) more water per revolution.
VTEC
NON-VTEC
Reason #2- the Gear is smaller on the NON-VTEC pump than the VTEC pump. This means the NON-VTEC pump will be turning faster then the VTEC pump at a ratio of 1.158 to 1 (19 to 22), regardless of
engine RPM.
Reason #3 the impellers on the VTEC pump are spaced further out from the center. this allows more water to flow between the impellers and the center, and not be pumped out.
Question- Theoretically the non VTEC pumps should move 131% the volume of water that the VTEC pumps move, so why don't we just use them?
Discussion- First off, the limiting element on how much flow your pump puts out is the Thermostat, not the pump itself. but the reason that Honda engineers put a less efficient pump in the high revving engines is CAVITATION
-define cavitation
The sudden formation and collapse of low-pressure bubbles in liquids by means of mechanical forces, such as those resulting from rotation of a marine propeller.
More information on cavitation
you see, the b18a and b engines were designed to operate in a much lower powerband than the VTEC engines. Actually the H2o pump in the b17's is the same as the b18a, so this is probably when Honda realized the area of improvement. What really kills your cooling system is that cavitation actually STOPS pumping the coolant, since the impellers are just creating bubbles. this would happen at the worst time possible -high RPMS- since your engine is making the most heat at this time.
The solution was simple. use a pump that would run slower, so it would be effective at higher RPMS (no cavitation) and would still move enough fluid at the lower RPMs so the thermostat would still be the limiter.
So the moral of the story?
if you will be running VTEC-get a less efficient VTEC h2o pump.
If you aren’t, get the non-vtec one.
Oil pump Hullabaloo.
While Rebulding my engine I did a comparison of the 91 b18a and the 92 b17 oil pumps. They were identical. In several Publications I read, I learned the "Pros" would boost up thier oil pressure by "shimming" a non-VTEC oil pump relief spring, or by swapping in a VTEC oilpump. Of course I had to ask the question "what is the difference?"
Well, with the unwitting help of the local ACURA $tealership, I have the answer.
The difference between the VTEC and NONVTEC oil pumps is a washer.
yep you read that right, a washer.
Newer non VTEC and VTEC
Older non-vtec
Here look at these two diagrams. notice the washer? (it's # 12) taking that out allows the hexhead plug to sit lower and compress the relief spring a little more. this results in a higher oil pressure before the plunger is lifted off the seat to bypass the oil. the "PRO" recommendation of shimming or use a washer on the end of the spring would compress it the same amount, giving the same result. the springs are IDENTICAL in all pumps.
This is not something you mess with normally, and was not covered at all in my HELMS. if it's in yours let me know.
So what do you non-vtec'ers do with this newfound knowledge?
if you need a "new" oil pump save yourself the money and rebuild your old one.
first take out your old oil pump. Get some loctite, a dental pick, a 10mm allen wrench, and a big screwdriver Buy both rotors and a relief spring. Remove the screws. they are loc-tited in but will break loose using firm steady pressure.
take out the rotors and inspect for wear on the housing from the outer pump rotor.
Clean it up with solvent and replace the outer and inner rotors. Check the clearances with a feeler gauge (refer to HELMS manual). Next, use the 10mm Allen wrench and remove the allen plug, washer, spring, and plug. use the dental tool to clean the threads of the old thread-sealant. replace the spring and throw the
washer in the garbage.
Cost about $35 if you get both rotors and a new spring. OR you could spend $150 for a new pump.
Let me know if you've found something different about the oil or water pumps, and if so please provide pictures.
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**Disclaimer** I offer no explicit or implicit warranty. What you do based on the information I provide is YOUR responsibility. If your car blows up... not my problem.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Smokey Yunick
"Reading truly is the lost art" -TEGGSRB18C1 |
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Changes To This Post: » Repaired Quote, Link, or Image by Jacksont001 at 5/8/2006 7:38:22 PM |
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mportracer33
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boostin in, MD Jul/06/03 1998 GSR User ID: 26935 Name: Mike
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Last Here
10/13/2006 |
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so when ppl upgrade there oil pumps to "type r" they really arnt getting anything better than a gsr.....also the only diff between ls and type r oil pump is the washer? are you positive about this?
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Shadowhunter
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San Diego, CA Jun/18/02 2002 Type-S User ID: 3302 Name: ED
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6/4/2008 |
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Excellent Work, Great Read!
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Jacksont001
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Snozzberry, VA Feb/22/02 1991 LS User ID: 244
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9/9/2010 |
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Quote: Originally posted by mportracer33 on Dec/11/04
so when ppl upgrade there oil pumps to "type r" they really arnt getting anything better than a gsr.....also the only diff between ls and type r oil pump is the washer? are you positive about this?
Pretty Damn sure, but I could be wrong...
the key is oil pressure. the thing that regulates it is the spring. the oil pushes up against the plunger until it overcomes the springs pressure and it is bypassed back to the pan. then the pressure drops a little and the plunger closes. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The spring is the same. if you could pre-compress the spring a little more (it is compressed when you put it in) that would mean MORE pressure would be needed before you bypass.adding a shim, or removing the top washer so the allen plug can be tightened down further will do the trick... and that's what they have done on the VTEC oil pumps.
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Gvtec
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DNF in, GA Feb/21/02 1998 Type-R User ID: 4 Name: Garrett
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7/11/2008 |
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Good stuff, T!
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Hype-R #885
4 sale: J&S $afeguard
There is no expedient to which a man will not go to avoid the labor of thinking.
-Thomas A. Edison |
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GSR_J 
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JDM Blows in, BC Jan/28/04 1995 GSR User ID: 39408
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Last Here
12/24/2007 |
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Man, Terry comes up with some very good comparison threads. Very informative. Kinda like the IM differences thread. Terry needs his own forum!
Good work and thanks.
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New life in place of old life, unscarred by trials. A new level of Confidence and Power |
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vitamin_d
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Modesto, CA Sep/28/02 1995 LS User ID: 9244 Name: Darrell
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4/5/2010 |
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In 1996, Honda made all the integra oil pumps universal, so all LS, GSR, and ITRs have the same oil pump 1996+.
I made a post about this a while back. I figure I may as well include this information in your thread since it relates.
source
Quote: Originally posted by white_rice on Sep/18/04
It has been quoted many times before that vtec oil pumps flow more than nonvtec. According to these part numbers that I rounded up below, this may not always be the case.
Quote: Acura Dealership
1992-95 Integra VTEC Oil Pump
15100-PR3-024 PUMP ASSY., OIL
90-95 Integra LS Oil Pump
15100-PR4-A03 PUMP ASSY., OIL
96-01 Integra Oil Pump All Models
15100-P72-A01 PUMP ASSY., OIL
91308-PK1-003 O-RING (26.2x2.4)
11810-P72-A00 COVER, TIMING BELT
As you can see all 1996+ LS/GS/RS/LS/SE/GSR/ITR Integras come with the same oil pump. They got the same exact part number. Therefore upgrading a 1996+ LS oil pump to GSR/ITR oil pump will not be benefitial. No increase of flow will be made.
It seems like the only 3rd gen integras that got the less flowing oil pump is the 1994 and 1995 LS. I do not know how the 1992-1995 vtec oil pump compares to the 1996+, but I assume that they are quite similar.
So if you were thinking about getting a GSR/ITR oil pump for your LS, you may not need too depending on the year.
By the way, very good comparison Terry!
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9 years and the teg still running strong. |
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Changes To This Post: » Repaired Quote, Link, or Image by BlueTeg at 10/25/2005 4:37:25 PM » Removed inappropriate text by vitamin_d at 1/19/2005 4:25:51 PM |
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MichaelDelaney
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Late Apexing, YT Feb/23/02 User ID: 416
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Last Here
8/21/2009 |
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I got my oil pump ported. Endyn radiused the inlet and outlet ports of a stock GSR oil pump housing to eliminate sharp edges and restrictions to oil flow. Larry used a Dumore grinder to smooth and blend the sharp edges of the ports. This is an old domestic V8 hot rod trick. You have to make sure that the oil pickup entry is stepped into the oil pump housing inlet radius.
You need about 10 psi per 1000 rpm engine speed.
The only "upgrade" available really is the billet oil pump gear, if you're road racing and running high heat, high revs for along time. The stock pump gear is made of a brittle alloy that really doesn't like high rpms and heat for extended periods.
High Volume Oil Pump Upgrade
To get more volume a larger or longer pump gears will deliver more flow volume. Add more teeth, get more flow for the same rpm. A larger surface area of the gears pushes more oil through at the same rpm as a stock pump. The increased oil flow volume also provides increased oil pressure at idle.
High Pressure Oil Pump Upgrade
High pressure oil pumps use a stiffer relief spring that doesn't open until you hit a certain oil pressure threshold.The actual flow rate may be not be different than a stock pump . However, the high pressure pump will increase the system oil pressure reading at high rpm but it won’t affect idle pressure.
Bearing clearances really dictate whether you need to worry about getting more flow...tighter clearances need less engine oil pressure.
Of course, it never hurts to have more oil flow delivery per engine speed but the absolute must is dictated by application of use, redline, and bearing clearances.
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Who is Michael Delaney?
Type R Teg Baby |
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MasterKwan
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Reston, VA Apr/29/04 2000 Type-R User ID: 45659
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Last Here
8/1/2005 |
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I've read you can have too much oil pressure. In the old days, too much oil pressure supposedly caused "bearing wash" which wore brearings out prematurely. I never quite understood the mechanism though. Does that still apply?
One thing I'm curious about is how much HP one of the high flow/high pressure pumps costs you?
I ended up buying a new oil pump the other day simply because I wanted to upgrade the engine I had to late model OBD2 specs. The pumps have bosses cast into them for the CFK sensor so the sensors can be mounted on front of the motor. The JDM B18C1 engine didn't have the bosses cast in. When you change to the newer oil pumps you also have to change the lower timing cover because the mount holes change.
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MichaelDelaney
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Late Apexing, YT Feb/23/02 User ID: 416
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Quote: Originally posted by MasterKwan on Dec/12/04
I've read you can have too much oil pressure. In the old days, too much oil pressure supposedly caused "bearing wash" which wore brearings out prematurely. I never quite understood the mechanism though. Does that still apply?
Sounds like just crappy bearings or leaky oil galley plugs on the crank to me. You have to remember that we are pretty spoiled when it comes to precision bearings with good lubricity and forged cranks with quality galley plugs put in straight from the factory.
I've never heard of "bearing wash" happening because of too much oil pressure in a Honda, including bikes and road racing engines. In fact, those HAMP small volume oil filters are supposed to bump up the oil pressure for you.
I'll have to see if there's any check valves running in between the oil filter and stock oil coolers in the OBD1 GSR and gen 3 ITR's which may affect your oil pressure and if the stock pressure is "good enough" under race conditions. I haven't heard of any reports to the contrary of wanting high pressure.
Wanting less oil pressure at higher rpms (especially more than what a V6 or V8 would see) to prevent oil starvation is just counterintuitive to me.
In terms of high volume aftermarket oil pumps, the only one I'm aware of is Toga's. Of note, their VTEC oil pumps are the same as the OBD2 nonVTECs but they have a separate one for the OBD1 nonVTEC. Not sure of the differences there. They report a 12% increase in flow volume at the same pressure and rpm.
An interesting note: I read on the sohc honda board about a very good point to consider. The discussion was around high volume oil pumps and if you actually need more volume as opposed to more pressure differential circulating through the engine. A subtle distinction for sure that some of us may pass over quickly.
Quote: In response to a spun bearing scenario and whether one should go for a high volume oil pump
How do you know that it is a problem of lack of oil volume and not pressure? How is it determined that it is a lack of volume and not something else?
If no one has ever measured how much oil the motor consumes at ________ RPM, how do you know the oil flow from the pump is inadequate?
Why do you feel that you need more oil volume ? What have you done to increase your engines ability to flow more oil? If you haven't done anything, simply putting on a higher volume oil pump will do nothing more than heat your oil...the bypass valve will just shear it and dump it back in your oil pan.
Oil starvation does not mean that the pump is not supplying enough volume...oil starvation is generally from the oil pick up tube coming uncovered - e.g. lack of good baffling in the oil pan or too low of oil level.
It's very much like Terry's cavitation story with the water pumps. Having more flow volume may not necessarily lead to more flow delivery at the bearing.
Quote: Originally posted by Jacksont001 on Dec/11/04
the key is oil pressure. the thing that regulates it is the spring. the oil pushes up against the plunger until it overcomes the springs pressure and it is bypassed back to the pan. then the pressure drops a little and the plunger closes. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The spring is the same. if you could pre-compress the spring a little more (it is compressed when you put it in) that would mean MORE pressure would be needed before you bypass.adding a shim, or removing the top washer so the allen plug can be tightened down further will do the trick... and that's what they have done on the VTEC oil pumps.
Terry nailed it pretty much spot on. He isn't wrong here folks. Clearly the preference here is to have a high pressure upgrade over a high volume upgrade unless you know you are comsuming larger than usual amounts of oil.
BTW for water pump upgrading, some shops actually modify the vanes on the pump to flow slower at high rpms (yes you read that correctly: less is better here) because of the cavitation issues.
PS AWESOME JOB TERRY !!! THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR KILLER THREADS THAT'S A COMMON TOPIC 4 SURE THAT BLOWS ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS BOARD OUT OF THE WATER.
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Jacksont001
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Snozzberry, VA Feb/22/02 1991 LS User ID: 244
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Last Here
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Thanks MD...
Now wait until you see the DIY P&P debacle I have in the works.
Quote: Originally posted by MasterKwan on Dec/12/04
I've read you can have too much oil pressure. In the old days, too much oil pressure supposedly caused "bearing wash" which wore brearings out prematurely. I never quite understood the mechanism though. Does that still apply?
...
The pumps have bosses cast into them for the CFK sensor so the sensors can be mounted on front of the motor. The JDM B18C1 engine didn't have the bosses cast in. When you change to the newer oil pumps you also have to change the lower timing cover because the mount holes change.
True you need to consider the CFK sensor (which I don't have) when dealing with the housings, but the point I was trying to make was that you don't NEED to buy the whole taco if the casing is still good. if a new inner and outer rotor is all you need then you saved a but-ton of money.
I have heard about"washing-out" bearings before. I think it relates to the way a V8 crank has two rods on the same journal, sideby side. Concievably the bearing could move sideways just a fraction of an inch and come into contact with the other one, or cause some other sort of damage. The way our bearings work prevent that.
I just found a great read on oil-pumps here
An important consideration to factor in, The pump just moves VOLUME not pressure. the pressure is a result of all the volume of oil getting pushed into the oil lines. That oil usually leaks out between the bearings, oil sqirters, VTEC pins, Cam oilers etc. it is supposed to leakout, but not nearly as fast as it is pumped in. thats where you get the pressure from. at a certain point you don't need the Excess oil flow volume, whic is indicated by a rise in pressure (oil comes in but it cannot leave fast enough) that's where the relief spring comes into play. As MD said, the rule of thumb is 10psi per 1000 rpms. so on your car that redlines at 6000, 60 psi is a reasonable value to bypass at. while the VTECs shouldn't bypass until 80 PSI due to higher redlines and the VTEC being actuated by oil pressure.
Which brings me back to why I was rebuilding it in the first place.... I plan on seeing 9000 on occasion. 
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MichaelDelaney
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Late Apexing, YT Feb/23/02 User ID: 416
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it's the old flow rate or flow speed vs. bulk flow volume distinction again Terry.
We do it for any elastic (compressible) fluid whether it be oil, coolant, or air.
Mr Bernoulli is our friend here.
A system's compliance is it's pressure-volume relationship.
We do this for the circulatory system that transports blood through your body and it's the same principles used when you transport an elastic fluid through tubes and a pump (in my profession the pump is the heart, the tubes are the blood vessels, and the fluid is blood...but you can apply it to an engine's oiling system using an oil pump).
Larry's big on reducing flow turbulence by ensuring the flow speed (not bulk volume) is up (via radiused openings at entry and exit areas where the casting has created sharp edges) to maintain the pressure from the oil pump but it really does depend on your oil pickup and what point your bypass kicks in.
As you said, a lot of oil loss happens at the head (VTEC rockers) and block oil squirters so that the system's compliance is low.
I'll try to take some pics of my backup VTEC oil pump which Larry ported for me last year to show you the ports on the inlet and outlet , once I can borrow a digital camera.
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MichaelDelaney
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Late Apexing, YT Feb/23/02 User ID: 416
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Quote: Originally posted by Jacksont001 on Dec/12/04
so on your car that redlines at 6000, 60 psi is a reasonable value to bypass at. while the VTECs shouldn't bypass until 80 PSI due to higher redlines and the VTEC being actuated by oil pressure.
Which brings me back to why I was rebuilding it in the first place.... I plan on seeing 9000 on occasion.
currently at idle, I'm at about 25 psi oil pressure baseline and cruising from 3500 rpm up to my 7200 rpm VTEC, the pressure sits at above 75 psi with the stock pump. With Larry's pump it's above 83 psi and at idle it's still sits at around 32 psi...i.e. significantly more pressure with the same relief spring.
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Jacksont001
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Snozzberry, VA Feb/22/02 1991 LS User ID: 244
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Last Here
9/9/2010 |
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FYI
The part numbers for the oil pump rotors are:
15131-PR4-004
and
15132-PR4-004
I'm not sure which one is which, but you do need both of them.
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