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Old 05-23-2005, 12:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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I searched through about 50 pages using the forum search as well as the google search, but i couldn't find my answer. I found similiar threads but the opposite of what i am asking, such as b16 block w/ gsr head, or typer block w/ gsr head.

I am thinking of buying a b16 xsi swap w/lsd. I know that the b16 has no torque, and this is where my question comes.

Pretty much my plan is to get a gsr bottom end, and use the b16 head to have a 1.8L motor with torque. I know i need an other intake manifold because the b16 manifold was not made for a 1.8L motor. I'll probably get a skunk2 IM.

My main conern is will the head be a bolt on deal on the gsr block or will it be more complicated.

My other conern is will i lose compression, or power by using the b16 head. I know the type-r uses the pr3 head which is the same as the b16 head, so i think it will work with the gsr block. I just want to make sure, and by the way i plan on keeping it stock at first. So my question deals with a stock b16 head on a stock gsr bottom end.

Power wise, will this be pretty much the same as the gsr, or will it be less? Would i have more torque than a b16 with this set up? Are there any problems with this set-up?

Dont tell me to just get a gsr swap, because i cannot afford it.

Also if i were to decide to get mild cams(skunk2) someday would the b16 head still work with this set-up or would i need to have it ported?
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
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a stock b18c1 block with a stock b16 head will have a lower compression than a stock gsr longblock...

reson due to the increase chamber area in the b16 head...

therefore... my suggestions to you are if you are going to do the b16 head swap, you might as well get the b16 pistons in it too...
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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So you recommend using b16a pistons in the gsr block. I know the b16b pistons yield really high cr so i dont think you meant that. So lets say i use different pistons, would there be any other problems with this set-up.

What about using ITR pistons, will they fit without modification on the gsr block.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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he's talking about using jus regular B16 pistons. this B16 pistons should put your compression somewhere in the 11's i'm not sure do a calculation on that. as far as the head i'm pretty sure its a straight bolt on.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I dont want to have some really high cr such as 11:1...so would the itr pistons be better to use?

The itr has stock cr of 10.6:1.

So by using itr pistons on the gsr block with the b16 head, would that give me a reasonable cr?

Also will the type-r pistions be a straight swap with a gsr block?
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:25 AM   #6 (permalink)
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with the CR in the 11's and you get some slightly more agressive cams, like ITR, CTR or Skunk2 stage 1 cams, you'd have yourself a nice mild set up.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:25 AM   #7 (permalink)
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been done and fully described here

the b16a head = type R head without the cams ,LMA , springs , intake vales, etc. , as you said.

it's a straight bolt-on to the b18c1 block.

if you look at the VTEC Head differences common topic (we showed Joe Alaniz's flowbench test comparing the 2) you would know that the 2 stock heads flow identically and that you lose CR to 9.8 instead of the GSR stock 10:1 CR because the b16a head has a bigger chamber volume.

vtec head differences common topic


here's why you port a head:

is this enough flow for my peak hp goal? common topic

if the stock numbers don't flow enough to meet the peak hp you are looking for, you port. it shows you the relationship between how much flow on a flowbench & peak hp in that link.

remember when you slap an IM onto the head, even a good one, expect a 5-8% drop on the flowbench numbers that you get with just the head alone. factor that into your determination of whether you need to port or not when you crunch the numbers.

if you don't first flow enough, you can forget everything else because until you flow enough, you're just spinnng your wheels & twiddling your thumbs wasting your time and money.


would it be more or would it be less than stock gsr b18c1? depends on a lot of things: how the motor gets assembled, how you break it in, how you tune it...if you put in the same cams, IM, exhaust system on both engines, and they were put together, broken in and tuned the same , you make less power with a lower CR ...that's pretty obvious to anyone.



by mild skunk2 cams I presume you are talking about the stage 1's. you can get away with 10:1 with them but they like 10.8-11.4 CR. they won't like 9.8:1 CR as much.
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelDelaney on May/23/05

would it be more or would it be less than stock gsr b18c1? depends on a lot of things: how the motor gets assembled, how you break it in, how you tune it...if you put in the same cams, IM, exhaust system on both engines, and they were put together, broken in and tuned the same , you make less power with a lower CR ...that's pretty obvious to anyone.




I dont know how to use the cr calculator. but by using ITR pistons would my cr be in the 10 range about where a gsr/itr sits. Also are the ITR pistons interchangeable with the gsr block.

I dont know if i could use the b16 pistons because i do need to pass smog here i california, and i dont want to over kill my motor because i am going to use stock cams.


I understand that with the skunk2 IM you loose power down at the bottom, but gain power towards the top. But im sure the skunk2 would be a better choice than bottlenecking my motor by using a b16 IM.

It was also suggested to me, to use ctr cams w/ b16 pistons. Any opinions regarding this?
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Old 05-23-2005, 01:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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this cr calculator is pretty simple, no math

it was referred in the "CR explained" TI Performance Article.

this TI Article tells you if you can use pistons from 1 engine into another. that will answer your last question too.
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Old 05-23-2005, 03:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Wow that cr calculator was very easy to use..thanks Michael. I googled a cr calculator and was kind of confused on what do do. Thanks for the links they helped alot, i guess i could of answered many of my own questions if i would have searched some more. Thanks alot though for the help.

With a 3 layer head gasket, 81 mm bore, gsr pistons, b16 head, and gsr block i get a 10.377 cr. You said i would get a 9.8:1 CR????

With a 3 layer head gasket, 81 mm bore, b16 pistons, b16 head, and gsr block i get a 11.09 cr. Pretty much the same with type-r pistons.

What i got from this link
is that with the gsr block i can use type-r pistons without any modifications. As long as i use a piston from the "r" family it will fit. I did realize that a b16 piston will not fit on the gsr rod w/out mods done to it.

So with a cr of 11:1, would that be overkill for the stock b16 cams? Or should i switch to the itr/ctr(i read that they are there almost identical so honda only made one cam for certain years) cams?
Is a 11:1 cr reliable with tuning and for a daily driver how would the motor be, or would there be any problems?

Do you think emissions would be an issue. I am going to be using stock oem honda parts, but i dont know if the cr can eaffect emissions?
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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yeah that bojangs CR calculator is also one of the more accurate ones too for Bseries motors using internals oem parts swapping because they use the correct deck clearances . it's pretty good. and no math to boot.

b16a pistons won't fit on a GSR rod properly without excessive piston rocking as the piston goes up & down the cylinder due to the thinner or narrower GSR rod small end compared to the b16a rod small end. you can put them in but with the excessive rocking, you'll be taking them out earlier than a proper swap due to premature wear/compression loss.

CTR cams are 00-01 ITR cams or vice versa. the JDM ITR (including the 00-01 models) is 11:1 CR.

is 11:1 CR overkill for b16a cams with a 40 degree intake ABDC spec (dynamic CR calculator) ? you'll have to use the dynamic CR calculator to appreciate the range of CR that those cams can work with but it may be a bit too complicated to use for you. If you're willing to read up on how to use it in here, using the dynamic CR calculator can provide a lot of insight but you should be ok with 11:1 and not undercam the motor.



of course emissions is an issue when you do internals modification. that's why you tune the motor by reprogramming the ECU for fuel and ignition changes. No-one can just slap in a higher CR and more aggressive cams and head and take it to the sniffer and expect it to pass using the stock ECU with no tuning.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:58 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris818 on May/23/05
Thanks for the links they helped alot, i guess i could of answered many of my own questions if i would have searched some more.







you're welcome.

yep, that's how this site was organized & designed to be used. you didn't have to go through 50 pages of google. as you can see, other than the hybrid honda website link, the majority of info that you needed was all here. It takes a bit of patience & diligence though.

for example,

as you can see entering the terms "head" "b18c1" , & Performance forum on a topic search, I got this thread

entering the terms "head" & "GSR", Performance forum topic search , I got this thread

I didn't try any other combinations yet...I'm sure there are more...
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Old 05-23-2005, 05:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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With the b16 cams i get this:
Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.188 inches, stroke 3.433 inches, rod c-c length 5.429 inches, with a static compression ratio of 11 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 40 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 44.91 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 3.14 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 10.09 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 214.09 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 10.09 :1.

With type-r cams i get this:
your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.188 inches, stroke 3.433 inches, rod c-c length 5.429 inches, with a static compression ratio of 11 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 45 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 44.91 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 3.07 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 9.88 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 208.45 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 9.88 :1.

I got the 40 and 45 values from here link
I dont know if they are correct but i used those values for the Inlet Valve Closes ABDC.

I read thayou want your cranking pressure to be greater or the same as stock.

With the b16 cams i get a cranking pressure of 214 psi and a dynamic cr of 10.09 :1.
With this set up i get a greater cr than a jdm type r. My cranking pressure also increases by about 3.5%

With the itr cams i get a cranking pressure of 208 psi and a dynamic cr of 9.88 :1.
This set-up is almost identical to the jdm itr. Cranking pressure and the cr stay about the same.

In the same article i linked prior to this it says a 5% increase, is significant, so i suppose the 3.5% increase in cranking pressure is moderate.

So what i get from this is that if i get itr cams with itr pistons, i would have a engine pretty similiar to the jdm itr, in terms of static compression, dynamic compression, and cranking pressure, am i correct?

By staying with the stock b16 cams, my cranking pressure, and dynamic compression increase, but my static compression will remain at about 11:1.

I am not sure what the cranking pressure and dynamic compression actually affect, but which set up, with the information i provided, would suit me the best?
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Old 05-24-2005, 12:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm hoping you can figure this one on your own Chris. I think I've gone as far as I can here with you . Some things you'll just have to work out for yourself to gain the insights for yourself.

But to get you pointed in the right direction, using 0 boost for NA and 347 ft altitude (That's what it is in Toronto), the stock GSR 10:1 CR with b16a cams gives a cranking pressure of 190 psi. That's where you start from.
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