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Old 10-20-2004, 01:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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a lot of the weight savings comes from having hollowed stems (gun drilled).

I believe (not sure) that the Ferrea and Manley are hollow stemmed. whether it translates into superior weight savings is another thing.
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Old 10-20-2004, 02:19 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The person who I talked to from Ferrea know that I will be running a very aggressive setup as we discussed it over the phone to the last detail, but the other manufacturers just know I am running forced induction with high compression.

The Ferrea guy is supposed to get back to me today or tomorrow, if not I'll inquire further about the chrome nitride coating. As for weight, cost, wear, and heat dissipation, I'd say that great wear qualities and great heat dissipation are paramount. While low weight would be very preferable, I'm not about to sacrifice wear for it (i.e. in the case of Ti valves). Cost takes a back seat, as the old saying goes, "only a rich man can afford to buy cheap things". A quality, durable, and performance-oriented valve that is relatively expensive is better in my opinion than a quality, performance-oriented valve that doesn't have good wear characteristics but costs less.

All these manufacturers seem to have pretty strong valves (from the manufacturers that have responded to me, at least), and so the weight and coating material are now the areas that I need to look into most. Perhaps I'll spend a day talking on the phone with all the representatives from the respective companies if I don't hear back via e-mail.
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Old 10-20-2004, 02:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yes their marketing states that the intake stems are gun drilled hollow, "avionics" chromium plated (10 microns thick).

The alloy on the valves are chromium nickel stainless steel (EV8 grade or with tungsten added for the EV8-Z18 grade) and EV4-N12 (which you may want to ask about because it's temperature resistant for turbo applications but you must ask for a relative comparison in wear between these grades of the chromium nickel stainless steel). They are then micropolished. All of their valves are undercut.

Chrome is what adds the hardness feature to the alloy. The valve companies used to use these chrome based alloys and coatings on the valve tips to ensure less wear at the guides. So this is how I know that adding a chrome based coating adds harness.


When you change the surface hardness, you change the wear rate (i.e. more) of the opposite mating surface to the coated valveface or stem (i.e. the seat or valve guide respectively), especially of these opposite surfaces don't have alloys that are hardness compatible. You don't want prematurely mushroomed valvefaces and angles, pounded valve seats (losing their angles), and a valve dropping because the guide "gave up" due to increased clearance between the valvestem and the guide.

Most of the time they don't mate hard surface onto hard surface. They usually put a hard alloy against a relatively softer alloy to reduce wear: at least they do this for the stem and guide. I'm not sure if the same concept applies to valveface and valveseat though. I get the impression that you want a hard valve seat alloy as well if your valveface is hard (say from the alloy and coating used)...but I'm not certain on this specific point. I'm not a metallurgist or chemical engineer.





The Ferrea FI-applicable exhaust valves use a highly dense, temp. resistant alloy called Nickelvac (Allvac is the company, a subsidiary of Allegheny Technologies).


So there is a difference between the intake valves which see a wider range of temperatures from the relatively colder temperatures of the intake system to the combustion chamber hotter temperatures versus the exhaust valves which "see" the much higher heat of the combustion chamber and burnt exhaust gases only.
So they have to recommend the FI compatible "set" that they sell to you, since you'll be experiencing hotter temperatures compared to an all motor guy like me.


As I said before, my stainless steel valves were great for me (lighter than GSR intake valves) at the time but they wore within 2 years. Something I wish I had known since the valve that DPR used did not have a good hardness rating and there weren't compatible wear resistant seats.

Grenside & Saunders (G&S), another valve company for you to check out, has nice valve seats which have a good hardness and made for turbo & SC applications. They're made of a cobalt alloy (farmed from a company called Stellite) . Stellite resists high temperatures, galling, abrasion/erosion, and corrosion. There's something like 20 grades of Stellite and for seats they use Stellite 6 grade.

You may want to ask each company if the stock valve seats are wear/erosion compatible with their valves or if they have seats compatible in hardness and temp. resistance for your FI package.
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Old 10-20-2004, 04:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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here is Ferrea's Super Flo vs. Flo valves:



notice that the Super Flo valve is what we call "under cut".

the stem is tupiped and made smaller/narrower to allow more air volume to stack at the back face of the valve before the valve opens and carries more flow volume as the valve opens down the "curtain area". The Supertech valves are also undercut and tuliped.


in most cases, high heat and high cylinder pressure applications tend not to have this "undercut" since it may weaken the stem with those extreme conditions. But Ferrea is able to undercut their intake FI stainless valves.
You'll have to see what the limits of those Super Flo valves are in FI applications. You may end up getting the Flo style instead depending on your priorities.


Here is a set of turbo application dished Manley stainless valves for the Honda VTEC Bseries:




notice that they are not undercut but instead have a beefy stem and have a dished face.

Most N/A motors tend to go for the undercut whereas the FI people prefer strength.



here are Supertech valves that have not been "undercut":



your choice....




Dished valve faces add chamber volume and therefore reduce static CR whereas flat faced valves increase CR by reducing the head's chamber volume.

Notice the back of the valveface is not mirror smooth. Again smooth surfaces generate flow "stickiness" and create unwanted turbulence.
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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just some more visuals (a pic = 1000 words) to show you what I was writing about here.

re: margin thicknesses.

here's some stainless valves with different margin thicknesses. they are observable even though the margin is not that big to the untrained eye. from thin to thick (left to right):




the untrained eye would focus on the obviously different valveface backcuts (including a trench cut I believe is there) instead of the valveface margin which is more subtle.
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
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a little off topic but I thought this was neat when I saw it for the first time and wanted to share it with you.

ever seen what flow looks like as the valve opens? (from Ricardo Engineering, a high end Engineering firm that specializes in high end racing engine development in Europe including F1 and FIA LeMans GTP engines):



again, a pic = 1000 words. notice the bend or turn that the flow has to negotiate before it goes into the combustion chamber and also notice that with good headporting and seat angles, the flow stays orgainized in parallel layers or what we call laminar flow. Also notice that the flow does not become turbulent for good mixing until it passes the opened valve (i.e. below the valve to the right).
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Thanks for the wealth of information Tuan. Due to the lack of response from a lot of the companies I am going to call them tomorrow-- I know a lot of the times e-mail inquiries are of a much lower priority than phone customers.

What questions would you like in addition to this:

Hardness rating?
Coating(s) available?
What styles available? Dished/flat?
Margin widths?
Micropolishing on the back face?
Stock valve seats usable?
Oversized valves available?
Material of valves?
Material of valveguides?
Material of valve seats?
Weights of valves?
Are the valves undercut?
Pricing?
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Old 10-22-2004, 01:06 AM   #22 (permalink)
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looks like you have your ducks in a row...happy shopping...

if you look at your Helms there's a section on stem to guide clearance.

as I said before, you may want to chat with the person who does the install for you and see if they have a particular method of ensuring the clearance is bang on according to Honda's specs.

some people hone the stem to assure the proper stem to guide clearance. if they do so , ask the valve manufacturer if this afftects their surface coatings or polishing if people do the stem honing or do they not recommend that?

if you do decide to go oversized, then you'll have to limit your cam choices since, during overlap, the edges of the intake valve and exhaust valves may "see" each other as they pass buy and the distance between them carefully checked so that they don't touch (called the "clicking distance"). somecams with steep ramps prevent you from using oversized valves for this reason.

as I said, oversized valves increase your top end power by increasing the hole through which the air flows (valve area) but requires porting and deshrouding of the head chamber.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head right now.

let us know what you finally end up choosing and why.

good luck
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Old 10-22-2004, 02:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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In response to your cam selection information, I'm planning on keeping the stock ITR cams-- do you think this is a wise choice for 11.5:1 and 6lbs of S/C goodness? I figure that the stock ITR cams should be decent for my setup, as I could then also keep the stock retainers and valvesprings. In addition, I do not plan on revving past 8,500rpm or so, with 9,000rpm as an extreme upper limit. With such a high CR plus boost, I don't feel that high revving is a great idea at this point.

As for the steep cam ramps, I was reading the thread on the asymetric cam lobes on the Honda cams so the cam ramp angle SHOULD be fine with proper deshrouding. In the head all I'm really doing over stock is changing the valves and valve guides and getting a headporting. Optimum efficiency is pretty much my goal; I want perfect flow, and high thermodynamic efficiency. I think I can achieve this with the stock cams. Do you think overlap will be an issue as it sometimes is with F/I vehicles?

Ideas?
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Old 10-22-2004, 02:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
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ITR cams are fine with SC and won't restrict whether you choose oversized valves or not (most people go with 0.5-1 mm over).
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Old 10-22-2004, 02:25 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Awesome. +0.5mm IN and +1.0mm EX it is. I'll update after I get some phonecalls going. If they're closed on the weekend I might have to call on Monday or Wednesday.
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Old 10-22-2004, 03:03 AM   #26 (permalink)
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excuse me for interupting, i just ordered a set of supertech valvetrain (v/s/r) i did NOT however order guides, what kind of problems if any should i expect because of the diff. in materials
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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lol, I'm actually glad that other people are posting-- if I wanted to keep it "private" I'd PM MD. The more user input the better. So you have Supertech valves, valvesprings, retainers, but no valve guides?

The hardness compatibility will not be very good I do not believe, so greatly accelerated wear on your valveguides will result. The clearances should be the same, but I am not positive. I would give Supertech a call and ask-- why wouldn't Supertech include valve guides in a valve package?
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Old 10-22-2004, 01:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logik on Oct/22/04
lol, I'm actually glad that other people are posting-- if I wanted to keep it "private" I'd PM MD.



I don't answer tech questions by PM's anyway since it doesn't end up on the searchable database here for everyone to gain access to info.

you can bet they'll be someone in the future here wanting Supertech valves or stainless valves and doing their own research on it.


Quote: Logik on Oct/22/04
why wouldn't Supertech include valve guides in a valve package?

most valve companies don't sell you that package. it's not just Supertech. they presume you've done your homework. it's your responsibility. if they're smart they'll tell you (good customer service) but they're under no obligation to. most people wanting these are racers who know what they're doing and ask the right questions.
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